Yeah at this point the debate isn't really on topic. Please do try to keep debates on topic. If you wish to discuss Mamoru and Usagi's relationship in depth, please take it to another thread. If need be, I can split this topic to form another.

We already have thread for Usagi/Mamoru pairing:

http://www.thegalaxycauldronforums.com/t3236-mamoru-and-usagi

I know about that thread, that is not what I meant. I meant a new debate thread in this section, since this is the section for these types of discussions (it would not be appropriate to indepthly discuss it in that thread). That thread is just for general "omg I love them" type stuff and some small discussion. If you guys want to seriously debate their relationship, please make another thread in the "Theories and Debates" section of the forum.

I don't want to have to issue another warning. So please do as we ask.

Small Lady wrote:

I know about that thread, that is not what I meant. I meant a new debate thread in this section, since this is the section for these types of discussions (it would not be appropriate to indepthly discuss it in that thread). That thread is just for general "omg I love them" type stuff and some small discussion. If you guys want to seriously debate their relationship, please make another thread in the "Theories and Debates" section of the forum.

I don't want to have to issue another warning. So please do as we ask.

sorry for all the offtopicness T.T

Sorry for getting off topic

And returning on topic:

I looked for the data and it is stated that in Japan 96-99% of females takes husbands' name.

So IMO this eventually settles the matter.

So.... its not possible that (due to their circumstances being different than the average Japanese family) that Usagi and Mamoru are in the other 1-4%?

The rare exceptions are generally cases, where family has no son to carry a surname and there is some family business to inherit. (as it was discussed in Rei's case). In Usagi and Mamoru's case I see no circumstances explaining gtheir oing against their societal norm.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

The rare exceptions are generally cases, where family has no son to carry a surname and there is some family business to inherit. (as it was discussed in Rei's case). In Usagi and Mamoru's case I see no circumstances explaining gtheir oing against their societal norm.

As I have explained time and time again and as the person to bring up how rare it is to take the male's name, I don't see what you're trying to say.

For the billionth time:

Mamoru does not have a lineage. It has nothing to do with carrying on the Tsukino name, the Tsukinos are a family, the Chibas are not, there is no "family" for Usagi to join in Mamoru's side. This is again, you not really getting your head around the cultural difference. In Japan when you marry the idea is that you "belong" to the family whose name you took. It is a very important concept to them, it is not the same as it is in the West. Usagi has nothing to gain from taking the Chiba name, Mamoru has to gain a family and a bloodline, so much more. In Japan, the sense of "uniting family through marriage" is as strong as it is in the West. In this case it has nothing to do with Shingo as I have said several times. These are the "special circumstances" around them. The fact that Mamoru is orphaned and the fact that Usagi comes from a tight family unit. You do not have to agree with me, but please don't just ignore things because its inconvenient for your beliefs. Rebuttle is fine but really I'm over this now. So that's just for if you plan to have future debates

You do not have to agree with me, but unless you're actual going to debate rather than just ignore facts that don't work with you and put vague and biased conjecture in place as evidence, I really just don't want to continue this and I'm kind of sick of seeing this bumped up (and I'm sure everyone else is too). Hokay so I'm conceding.

My new belief:

Usagi probably became Usagi Chiba because they are regular people with no special circumstances and will most likely follow social norms as this discussion has made me reconsider.

Mamoru and Tsukinos seem to be quite distant, with little contact. I can't see ta any side wish to adopt him into their family unit.

And for me the statistical data with so high number is definitive evidence.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

Mamoru and Tsukinos seem to be quite distant, with little contact. I can't see ta any side wish to adopt him into their family unit.

And for me the statistical data with so high number is definitive evidence.

The problem with statistical data is that we are also talking about a fictional world. So statistics that may very well apply in our world, may not necessarily always work out in the Sailor Moon universe. Its very much like the debate about justifying Uranus and Neptune's actions. You have to view it from the perspective of the fictional universe we are talking about. You can't really apply real world facts and data to it, because, well, we are talking about something that ISN'T real.

Past that, I feel this is a pretty weak argument for the last names. The only reason it seems distant is because the anime and other versions of SM rarely show homelife once Usagi and Mamoru are an item. We had that one scene in R right before the break up, where Ikuko seemed very thrilled that Usagi had a boyfriend and even said to invite him to dinner (Kenji-papa of course had some stereotypical father issues with it). I'm also reminded of the episode in SuperS, where Ikuko makes the lemon pie (the one where she is a target of the Trio), and everyone, including Mamoru, is there, at the end of the episode. Ikuko seems very fine and happy to have him there, along with the girls. I think if they were distant, he probably would not have been included in that scene.

While I'd rather not assume things, just based on the little interaction we have, I feel its safe to say that they eventually would welcome him into the family. Ikuko already expressed delight in him being in a relationship with her daughter.



I can accept that Usagi and Mamoru may go with the traditional route and keep Chiba as a surname, especially in PGSM. But I also think that Tsukino is still very highly likely. I feel like at this point we are kind of going in circles. Points for both sides have been brought up and discussed. It could very well go either way. I personally feel, going with the fact that this is a very pro-feminine series, that it will be Tsukino until Usagi is coronated as Queen and from that point on their civilian names no longer matter. The only exception to this would be in PGSM, where there is no more Sailor Moon and therefore no Crystal Tokyo. Its quite apparent in that version the last name would highly likely be Chiba.

It's a fictional world, but it's set in specific place and time. So most of cultural norms will probably apply, unless stated otherwise in the show.

I really wish we got that dinner - I hope that it will be in new anime - but it shows that they weren't interested in Mamoru becoming part in Usagi family. I was very glad to see him with that cake, but otherwise Ikuko IIRC ignored him?

I don't think that Crystal Tokio in future or lack of it in any way would influence their choice. This is the future and basing their decisions on it could warp the timeline.

I also am not fond of the message that choosing female's surname is more pro-feminine than male's. IMHO it's preferable when people have legally many options, such as keeping both, with hyphen, or using one as pseudonym. However, IMO, any of the choices should be judged as better.

Also, problem with Mamoru's published papers.

What published papers does Mamoru have? College papers, if that's what you mean, are something else. And nobody concerns themselves with them because they are just with the instructor.

Even if he did have anything publisher in a book or magazine, no one is ever concerned about that. Like ever. If he took on Tsukino, it would say, in future publications: "Mamoru Tsukino (nee Chiba)" or something like that. So no, no concerns there.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

I really wish we got that dinner - I hope that it will be in new anime - but it shows that they weren't interested in Mamoru becoming part in Usagi family. I was very glad to see him with that cake, but otherwise Ikuko IIRC ignored him?

Well it shows more like the ANIME WRITERS weren't interested in Mamoru becoming part of the Tsukino family, not necessarily the characters themselves. Since there is very little to no development of the Tsukino's (i'd say Ikuko gets the most out of them all), you really can't say for a fact that they don't accept him. Saying that means that we can't say for a fact that they did, but just judging at least from the way Ikuko acts, that they seem like they would.

IMO, it's not so much that Tsukinos don't accept him, because I believe they get he is not going anywhere. For me, it's rather a form of polite distance, which both sides are comfortable with. I can't see Mamoru pushing himself into Tsukinos.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

What published papers does Mamoru have? College papers, if that's what you mean, are something else. And nobody concerns themselves with them because they are just with the instructor.

Even if he did have anything publisher in a book or magazine, no one is ever concerned about that. Like ever. If he took on Tsukino, it would say, in future publications: "Mamoru Tsukino (nee Chiba)" or something like that. So no, no concerns there.

If it was so easy, it wouldn't be such a problem for many people - and in Japan there are no options of hypenathing surnames or using maiden surname of pseudonym.

It isn't a problem for many people. It's not a problem at all. Otherwise, they wouldn't change their names after marriage, would they? The only complaint that people have about name changes is how long the process takes and everything you have to do through the government to change it. Nothing about identity issues and difficulties. And since Serenity and Endymion ARE the government......

Also, like I said, they wouldn't need to. If he DID, for whatever reason, have a publication where he was Chiba and then after, Tsukino, again, they'd just be like "Tsukino Mamoru (nee Chiba)" to indicate change, and that would be that. Simple. Wouldn't be referenced again and everybody would know. Soooo....your argument is null and void.

Yet there are not Serenity and Endymion and they have much time before that happens.

It's not so easy and simple given how many females in science has compound surnames. There can be ways to solve this problem. However, I don't see them even thinking that they could choose other that default option.

I believe she kept the surname Tsukino because Chibiusa when she first appears calls herself Usagi Tsukino but I think it might be more like Usagi Chiba-Tsukino since some families keep both surnames as a way of showcasing their family connections, origin and wealth.

not really in Japan though

Although some families in Japan do and Naoko often uses other cultural references. Chobisa states her last name is Tsukino but I image Usagi would still want to be called Usagi Chiba because she's always wanted to be a bride so that is why I image they'd use both

Usually in Japan, its only when they've married a foreigner and immigrated out of Japan to some Western country. I've never heard of any non-foreigner to join their names in Japan. It just doesn't really work in Japan that theory, its more of a Western concept. In Japan, taking a surname has more to do with the family rather than the individual. It is the idea that Mamoru would be marrying into the Tsukino Family or Usagi would be marrying into the Chiba Family not that Mamoru and Usagi are marrying one another, however since the Chiba Family doesn't really exist beyond Mamoru, its kind of a mess.

Naoko herself is married now, its unclear if she took her husbands name or not, or if he took hers. Likely she took his. But Naoko Takeuchi is the name she uses on her books and so forth but legally one of their names would have changed.

Chibiusa first introduces her self as Tsuskino Usagi, so I would think that Usagi kept her name

When it comes to marriage and changing the surname it doesn't have to do with anything legal. If someone wanted to get married they don't have to change their last name to their spouses if they don't want to, that is all up to personal preference although some religions are against this way of thinking

Maybe in America, but under Japanese law, its not quite the same. One of them must change their family name.

After looking it up I found some interesting stuff. It doesn't necessarily matter whether the wife or the husband keeps the surname but sometimes it's influenced on the number of sons in a family so in this case Tsukino would be the surname. When it comes to businesses while on paper the surname is one thing, they can still introduce themselves with their birth surname. In 2011 woman and their spouses started a campaign and are sueing for the right to keep their surnames separate and that is still ongoing. I hope they win^^

Like I said, its a legal obligation but some people will use their birth name, especially when its already recognised like Naoko Takeuchi. But legally I think it would be Tsukino.

Then my first comment is correct when I chose Tsukino^^

Well its really up to you, if you think so or not, this thread is merely to discuss which side makes more sense since we don't know for certain.

That's why this thread is a debate

Saturn Skyy wrote:

Chibiusa first introduces her self as Tsuskino Usagi, so I would think that Usagi kept her name

Chibiusa first introduces herself just as "Usagi".

I think she got the Chiba and he assumed her last name. So we would have a Tsukino- Chiba or Chiba Tsukino as you prefer.
Or each one stayed with their names, to keep the pun, Protector of Earth and Rabbit of the Moon.

And in anime I think Chibiusa says she is Usagi Tsukino, she only revals her royal tittle later. So, or Mamoru decided to name his only daughter exactly like her mother or he also have the same surname.