And for me, imo, Saori doesn't come off too poorly. I mean yeah, to everyone else looking at them it's kinda like "Why is this older guy going with this..well, teenaged girl? This won't last." Which, thinking about it, isn't that poorly. Saori is around Mamoru's age -and- she still admires/crushes on him. I mean, if she's had this crush since highschool, that's quite a long time. She seems to be a pretty successful woman at that.

So yeah, watching Mamoru and Usagi before she realizes/sees the relationship in action, you can kinda see her point. (Anime wise at least. It makes pretty much more sense.)

ITA, that it would look so for everybody - and I don't blame Saori for not getting their relationship. And I would even understand her discussing with Kobayashi that Chiba sempai has gone crazy. However, actually hitting on Mamoru because she doesn't like Usagi is not ok. The point is that relationship like this suits Mamoru and he chose it - and even if it didn't work, it'ś unlikely he would go for Saori he had known for a long time. (And also her deception is very offputting).

And IIRC it was not explicitly stated her feelings originated in high school - only that then they were believed to be potentially perfect couple. It's a little ambiguous, but I'm not convinced Saori is the type to crush unrequitedly for years.

-Shrugs- Hmm, true. I just think hating her is a bit much, especially when she understood the appeal in the end.

True, but I thought it was implied that she knew him from high school. Since it only seems like a few years (he's about 20 anime wise, I think. So it doesn't seem too long.). Then again, we don't know much about Saori to know if she could be the type or not.

Either way, I'm actually glad she appeared. It's interesting to see someone else's take on the relationship that knew Mamoru a bit longer and to see what they think of it rather then have it being always someone that's been a friend of Usagi or who knows both of them.

Edit: And now that I've rewatched some of the first part- Yup, they're currently college-mates that's been attending the same class from high school (she says so herself when Chibiusa asks what their relationship is.). And I can completely understand why Saori's like "....you have got to be kidding me." In thinking that Usagi is Mamoru's girlfriend. Their first meeting is kinda..uh..terrible in a sense. Usagi acts more like a little kid than a girlfriend. (which.. I'm sure is played for laughs here.)

Honestly, I don't find anything deceptive so far about her. She seems pretty all together. I just don't see any reason why she should be hated.

Yes, she had known Mamoru since high school, I'm however not sure she was crushing on him for the whole time.

I see deception in her visit under pretence of meeting Mamoru's girlfriend and in fact checking on her "rival", then pretending to be nice to Usagi, asking Mamoru to buy with her a tie for "some guy"...

I think I would like her more if she understood the depth of love between them in the end - but no, she just couldn't compete with girl who keeps peace in the world.

I also think that it was brilliant idea to show different persperctive on their relationship.

(OT but I love Mamoru thanking her and them holding hands in the end).

Moonlight Lady wrote:

Yes, she had known Mamoru since high school, I'm however not sure she was crushing on him for the whole time.

I see deception in her visit under pretence of meeting Mamoru's girlfriend and in fact checking on her "rival", then pretending to be nice to Usagi, asking Mamoru to buy with her a tie for "some guy"...

I think I would like her more if she understood the depth of love between them in the end - but no, she just couldn't compete with girl who keeps peace in the world.

I also think that it was brilliant idea to show different persperctive on their relationship.

(OT but I love Mamoru thanking her and them holding hands in the end).

Well we don't know if she understood it or not verbally, but from her expression I think she did. I don't really see that as a deception much. I mean she -is- there to see his girlfriend. That part isn't a lie. Personally, I see it as a two-for-one deal in a sense that, yeah she's checking out competition but she's also seeing if this person is good enough for her friend too. (but that's my opinion on it. I always look at my friends' boy/girlfriends to see if they're good enough for them.) and she's not even pretending, she -IS- being nice to them. There's never in an instance in the epsiode that shows she's being mean spirited. maybe a little thoughtless but she's not being mean. We're not given any indication, like usual, that the character's feelings are insincere. (such as darkening around the features except the eyes. Inner monologue as to what they're thinking- like Chibiusa does throughout the epsiode.).

So I think she is being nice to them because they're kids to her. She doesn't think it's serious with him and with the introduction they had, it really doesn't seem so (to anyone that doesn't know anything about Usagi and just met her that moment, she's silly, young and you wouldn't think a 15yr old dating a 18-20 yr old guy serious. Not normally.)

As far her buying the tie, which she intended to give to him after she confess, well yeah it's a little deceptive but I don't see it as entirely a terrible thing. Mostly because that's kinda another way how normal people can buy presents for those they like.

So yeah, while it's terrible to us, the viewers, for her to try and put 'moves' so to speak on a guy that already has a girlfriend, I don't think it's too terrible. Especially when she does back off being the better person and never tells Mamoru about her feelings, thus preserving their friendship as well as acknowledging that Usagi/SailorMoon is someone that Mamoru has chose.

I think that Mamoru actually introducing his girlfriend to his friends should be big clue that he is really serious about it - it was his first girlfriend and they have been together for more than a year.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

I think that Mamoru actually introducing his girlfriend to his friends should be big clue that he is really serious about it - it was his first girlfriend and they have been together for more than a year.

Not always considered serious. Serious is introducing to parents. Friends, not so much. I don't think we're even sure how this came about as well.

well, i only introduce to my friends when it is serious

Mi Mako Chan wrote:

well, i only introduce to my friends when it is serious

And mostly my friends knew who I dated/or whomever I was dating at the time met them. It wasn't much of a big deal. Now meeting the parents, that's a bigger deal. But, I suppose it's really all in perspective of what each person thinks is a serious thing. Me, personally, I don't think it's that serious.

I agree that it depends on the person - but IMO in case of Mamoru who is generally distant with females, introducing her to friends was a big step.

And I also wonder whose idea was this meeting?

In reference to the recent debate, I have another question:

-What does King Endymion do?

Quote :

agree that it depends on the person - but IMO in case of Mamoru who is generally distant with females, introducing her to friends was a big step.

For a guy that's distant with females, he seems to make friends with them pretty easily. (Saori- From High School to College. Motoki's little sister, Reika (both in manga and out). Then the mechanic for his car/bike is also a female. ) So.. don't think it's that mostly, but that's how I see it. I don't think he's distant from girls in general, perhaps more so distant at their intent of dating -him- that makes him awkward/distant. (As seen with Rei/An/Fisheye (well he's feminine. It counts. ) were very pushy about their affections towards him. )

Moonlight Lady wrote:

In reference to the recent debate, I have another question:

-What does King Endymion do?

I imagine that Endymion is the muscle. Generally, he deals with the technical aspect. When I was younger, I used to think that Serenity's position was both a figure head and does things only when there's an attack. Of course, the Anime doesn't give us much of an idea of Usagi leading anything other than a charge of attack against an enemy.

Now, I sort of think she deals with some times, but in general, she kinda is the Face. while Endymion deals with the Diet and ect.

Ktenshi wrote:

Quote :

agree that it depends on the person - but IMO in case of Mamoru who is generally distant with females, introducing her to friends was a big step.

For a guy that's distant with females, he seems to make friends with them pretty easily. (Saori- From High School to College. Motoki's little sister, Reika (both in manga and out). Then the mechanic for his car/bike is also a female. ) So.. don't think it's that mostly, but that's how I see it. I don't think he's distant from girls in general, perhaps more so distant at their intent of dating -him- that makes him awkward/distant. (As seen with Rei/An/Fisheye (well he's feminine. It counts. ) were very pushy about their affections towards him. )

Yes, you're right that Mamoru actually has female friends (and we can add Inners and maybe Setsuna?). However, I meant "distant with females" in romantic sense - he seems to have had nobody before Usagi. He also seems to treat his female friends in completely platonic way. So knowing about his finally getting a girlfriend - for quite a long time and being introduced to her, they could really have idea that it's serious.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

Yes, you're right that Mamoru actually has female friends (and we can add Inners and maybe Setsuna?). However, I meant "distant with females" in romantic sense - he seems to have had nobody before Usagi. He also seems to treat his female friends in completely platonic way. So knowing about his finally getting a girlfriend - for quite a long time and being introduced to her, they could really have idea that it's serious.

Problem with before the series, is we can only assume that he hasn't. For all we know, he probably has dated before Usagi. Maybe he's even had a crush before her. (Actually, I'm pretty certain about the crush thing. Mamoru's found other women attractive so that idea isn't too far fetched.)

Their mutual male friend, Kobayashi, makes a big deal out of it not just for his own sake (mostly his own sake) but also for Saori. Though, I'm not even sure how long Kobayashi himself has been friends with Mamoru since from what I've gathered, Mamoru and Saori's been classmates from high school but it doesn't specifically say that Kobayashi himself was in high school with them.

Which makes it slightly interesting as Saori, herself, doesn't seem to be making a very big deal out of it. She's not loud about it, as Kobayashi straight out asked and is actively looking around Mamoru's apartment.

While Saori doesn't do that at all. I find it both odd and telling about her because in honesty, most women who's looking to date someone and it's the first time they've been in the object of their affections' home- they would look for a presence of competition. Photos, clothing, maybe decorations and such. But she doesn't seem to look for any of that and it's Kobayashi, again, that draws attention to it.

Makes me think that Kobayashi only knows Mamoru from college rather than from High School like Saori does. Which could mean she's probably seen him date someone else before and it obviously didn't work out and probably is why she's acting the way she is now.

It would be nice if we had a short manga that dealt with the lives of the characters before Usagi/destiny stuff, but of course, the story's not focused on that overly much and doesn't resolve a lot questions (especially around Mamoru.) Which, is pretty vexing.

Probably why I like PGSM over the anime (and at times the Manga) because it addresses these things and gives us other elements to consider (Especially with Mamoru who had better character development/situation. ).

But didn't Kobayashi tell Chibiusa that in high school Mamoru and Saori were considered perfect couple material? So it suggests to me he had known them back then.

Saori's behaviour seems normal to me - after all, she is going to see Mamoru's girlfriend in a few minutes, so why bother asking and possibly arise suspicions? Personally I find Kobayashi's behaviour strange, especially his confessions to Chibiusa - little kid, whom he believes to be a cousin of Usagi.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

But didn't Kobayashi tell Chibiusa that in high school Mamoru and Saori were considered perfect couple material? So it suggests to me he had known them back then.

Saori's behaviour seems normal to me - after all, she is going to see Mamoru's girlfriend in a few minutes, so why bother asking and possibly arise suspicions? Personally I find Kobayashi's behaviour strange, especially his confessions to Chibiusa - little kid, whom he believes to be a cousin of Usagi.

No, at the university they're considered the best couple. He says it in the first few minutes here:
Sub Ep 132 BSSM:SuperS

Maybe not asking, but it's weird she doesn't look around the apartment the way Kobayashi is shown to. And it IS weird in how he's acting. Like, he's more interested in Mamoru (outwardly) than she is. But yeah, based on how he's speaking, it's like he's only known Mamoru from the university, not High School.

Also, the way they both kind of treat the relationship Mamoru has with Usagi as kind of like it's not real. Especially since Kobayashi then mutters in the same part how he wishes Mamoru had an actual girlfriend (despite being introduced to Usagi as said girlfriend in the first place.).

Yes, they were fairy dismissive of Usagi as match for Mamoru. I wonder whether it was only because Usagi is so much younger or did they really believe he could do better.

I think it's both. I mean, no offense to teens in general, but generally no one takes teenage romances seriously because that's usually the age most things come and go at the drop of a hat and a lot of things are considered childish and immature. Of course there's always exceptions to the rule, but for the most part it looks like both Saori and Kobayashi consider the relationship as an indulgence on Mamoru's part.

Usagi and Chibiusa's entrance/introduction does not help the matter. If they had been less childish and showed some maturity (Chibiusa is an exception. She's still a little kid) maybe they would have taken it more seriously.

Then again they're also Mamoru's friends, not Usagi's, so yeah of course they're probably going to look at this and think "He can do so much better. "

I wonder how they explained to themselves Mamoru's attraction - that he's into schoolgirls, that he's just growing himself a wife?

And their dismissal of Usagi - and Chibiusa'a, too - was pretty painful Fortunately Mamoru and Usagi are above that nonsense

well for the audience, it's nonsense. In IRL, we probably would've thought the same way as them. To them, I'm guessing they probably think he's amusing himself/indulging her until he's ready for an actual marriage that's probably more worthwhile. Like in PGSM, Hina, or here Saori because they're tied to money and-or companies that Mamoru could get into/have backing. Saori, in this case is not only getting into police work but her ambitions makes her a more likely choice because she's closer to her goals/career of choice and therefore more stable than say Usagi who's still in jr. high(Middle school essentially) and who has no real prospects or ambitions other than being I guess a mangaka.

So, which sounds more secure: Marrying a woman that's not only going to be an officer but has the ambitions of being Commissioner or a middle schooler that wants to be a mangaka? (Lets take out the whole 'she's Sailor Moon' part of the latter.)

If you didn't know Usagi or her Sailormoon destiny stuff- the first would be more appealing and a far more logical choice if you're going to that.

But yeah, I can understand their dismissal at Usagi and Chibiusa- they're little kids in comparison. They acted like little kids fighting over their favorite toy in the beginning. Why shouldn't they dismiss them?

Besides, at least they're polite about the whole thing.

And either way, it's still Mamoru's choice in the end. He wants to be with Usagi, that's what he's going to do come hell or high waters.

Hee. I love Mamo-chan, so this definitely interests me.

Welcome new Mamo-fan!

Ktenshi - is Usagi serious about drawing manga in future? IMO she chose this club only because it was only one of interest to her. Her dream of future is to be Mamoru's bride and serving him soups.

And yes, it was interesting to show this pairing from the perspective of those who don't know them closely. For sure, many would wonder how this may work.

I however didn't like the implication that Sailor Moon stuff is the thing which makes them valid.

Well, I know it's one of her interests but really it's a possibility of her doing so as well- mean it's not hard to imagine her start a career with that. But yes, we'll go with the housewife bit then. But the idea still stands that Saori probably would be a better bet than Usagi.

And no, the Sailor Moon stuff doesn't validate them completely (Though it does seem like it would). After all, Saori got to see first hand not only Usagi (As Sailor Moon) Try to save not only her but Mamoru too- and then you have Mamoru himself saving Usagi.

Which shows his willingness to protect Usagi too, his concern and everything.
Mean how do you stack up against a girl who's not only trying to save you and her boyfriend, but in turn had the boyfriend save her, genuinely concerned about this girl who you thought he's just indulging.


(Though yeah, it completely seems like that. Maybe it's because it shows a level of Maturity on Usagi side that counteracts her earlier impression of a little kid?)

I wish that Saori's realization was more about Mamoru showing genuine concern for Usagi, as you beautifully describe, rather than her being Sailor Moon. And maybe internally it was also - but she didn't express it that way.

And yes, Mamoru did protect Usagi - and he calls her "Usako", which means that he cares about her beyond being Sailor Moon. So it's great he sees her as ideal match for him.

Well, that's because we emote more but honestly I think her understanding is pretty clear. Either way it goes, Mamoru still chose Usagi. So, yeah, in the end, I never believed Saori was a terrible person at all or even deceptive. She's not mean or mean spirited.

She might not be terrible person or mean-spirited, but deceptive IMO yes - at least in this case.

And futhermore - I wonder whether Saori noticed how much Mamoru has changed since dating Usagi - and if she did, which IMO would be impossible to miss, what she attributed this change to.

Who knows? Mamoru's a charming man before and after Usagi, he's demonstrated this personality before. He may be probably more giving/personal but at the same time not everything is primarily the result of Usagi. I don't know what she would think. Maybe that he's gotten laid? Who knows.

I still don't think it's deceptive but too each their own on that part.

I also wonder why didn't Saori and Kobayashi hold against Mamoru playing with middle schooler's feelings?

I hope they will keep in touch with Mamoru after university and that they will be invited to the wedding,,,

Don't know. Though I've read mangas and seen some shows that refrences middle-high school girls that just simply date order men but they're not serious about that relationship. It's a kinda tit for tat deal though I'm a bit fuzzy on it. It's been a while since I've read most mangas.

Maybe that's why? Who knows? It's a different society than the one I come from with different societal norms.

I guess they would? I mean there's no real reason not to invite them and no reason why they wouldn't attend.