Crystalsetsuna wrote:

XD that'd be a very intresting twist to the debate! the animators deciding it's Seiusa! and not Mamusa!

i don't distinctly remember that many very romantic scenes in the anime...though the screen shots are nice, they are certainly not enough.

Haha, I'm sure at least some people on the team would have wanted to, but they could never make an ending like that. xD But yeah, a few romantic scenes in the anime, but not nearly enough for a love that transcended time.

Small Lady wrote:

I think the thing about the anime though, is that
there is a less focus on their relationship at times and I think the
manga was more focused on their relationship. The reason he seems cold
to Usagi in public and shows no affection is that I think we tend to
forget that Japanese culture feels different about PDA than we do, and I
would say its probably even more different in the early 90s than now.
Its more of a no-no thing, hence all the scenes where Mamoru seems
awkward to be kissing Usagi in public, like in the R movie. I think
also a lot ofthe intimate scenes in the manga that we see are in
private, hence why we get a lot of intimate scenes in the manga. When
we see them together outside in public, its just occasional kisses on
the cheek (and if i remember correctly its usually Usagi prompting
those).

Yeah, this is true, but at the same time I don't see why a series like Sailor Moon would wanna go for a realistic take on how romantic relationships work in Japan. xD I mean, there's no denying there's plenty of shoujo anime and manga, both back then and now, where the couples kiss and act romantically out in the open, I don't see any reason why Sailor Moon should hold back in that aspect. And even if they'd be intimate scenes in private, I'd still want to see more of that in the anime, because those were rather few as well.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

Ending
of Usagi with Seiya would be plainly bad writing, after all the
development of Mamoru with Usagi. And yes, it requires shipping goggles
to see the date in the amusement park (where Usagi thinks about Mamoru's
silence) as more than all the places and occasions Mamoru takes
them.

I said so a while back I believe. Of course the anime could never end with Seiya and Usagi getting together, that would make everything they spent developing between Usagi and Mamoru completely pointless and leave far too many problems unsolved. But no, I don't think shipping goggles are required to see that it is a fact that Mamoru and Usagi never had an episode of them just casually spending a day together and bonding, and yet Seiya and Usagi got plenty of those. This despite the fact that Mamoru had 173 episodes where the animators could have made him do that and Seiya only had 27. I still call favoritism from the animators here~.

SerenaChiba630 wrote:

Oh I agree with you on that the Anime focused
more on Usagi's friendhip but we have to remember Sailor Moon was Aim
for young audience I personaly think the Animators thought it was
inappropriate for little kids to see romantic scenes between Usagi and
Mamoru so they decide to squeeze some but not alot because the 90s was a
different period of time parents weren't as open as they are now and if
they saw there kids watching kissing scenes between Usagi and Mamoru
they would think it was a corrupted show .

That's what I think I
maybe wrong though but I also heard that the Writers didn't like
Mamoru's character so they try to cut him off. Im not sure why though. I
know he came off as a jerk at first but I just love His character. I
really love the fighting scenes between him and Usagi they were
hilarious or like you said when he was Tuxedo Mask to but unfornuately
the writers made Mamoru and very dislikable character

I
also agree with what Small Lady said Japanese culture is very different
I don't think they believe in the word Romantic. If you think about it
little kids weren't going to read the Manga, the manga would be aim for
Teenagers so maybe thats why they made it more romantic.I really though
the new anime is more like the manga Im hoping they dont change anything
it would suck if they did

I like that picture alot its soo cute how Mamoru shows doesn't let her go he's scared she will disappear aww

I really like these two

Hm, I don't agree agree with the idea that they may have toned down the romance between Usagi and Mamoru because it'd be inappropriate or something. Like I said to Small Lady earlier, Japan isn't short on romantic stories, they can do some really good stuff, even in kid's shows. And keep in mind this is the show that had an openly lesbian couple among the main case, plenty of homosexual and crossdressing characters, plenty of villains and monsters wearing the skimpiest outfits imaginable, and even sex changing Sailor Senshi in black leather outfits! xD I don't believe a few kisses and tender moments between our main couple of the show would be an issue. No, I think they toned down their relationship solely because they wanted to give full focus on the friendship and bond between the girls. So poor Mamoru got pushed to the side. But don't worry, I'm sure the new anime will do a better job at that, it was one of the biggest flaws in the old one after all. <3

And aww, those scenes are really cute too! I loved the interactions between Mamoru and Usagi before they fell in love. xD They were so cute and funny.

Louchan wrote:

Crystalsetsuna wrote:

XD that'd be a very intresting twist to the debate! the animators deciding it's Seiusa! and not Mamusa!

i don't distinctly remember that many very romantic scenes in the anime...though the screen shots are nice, they are certainly not enough.

Haha, I'm sure at least some people on the team would have wanted to, but they could never make an ending like that. xD But yeah, a few romantic scenes in the anime, but not nearly enough for a love that transcended time.

Small Lady wrote:

I think the thing about the anime though, is that
there is a less focus on their relationship at times and I think the
manga was more focused on their relationship. The reason he seems cold
to Usagi in public and shows no affection is that I think we tend to
forget that Japanese culture feels different about PDA than we do, and I
would say its probably even more different in the early 90s than now.
Its more of a no-no thing, hence all the scenes where Mamoru seems
awkward to be kissing Usagi in public, like in the R movie. I think
also a lot ofthe intimate scenes in the manga that we see are in
private, hence why we get a lot of intimate scenes in the manga. When
we see them together outside in public, its just occasional kisses on
the cheek (and if i remember correctly its usually Usagi prompting
those).

Yeah, this is true, but at the same time I don't see why a series like Sailor Moon would wanna go for a realistic take on how romantic relationships work in Japan. xD I mean, there's no denying there's plenty of shoujo anime and manga, both back then and now, where the couples kiss and act romantically out in the open, I don't see any reason why Sailor Moon should hold back in that aspect. And even if they'd be intimate scenes in private, I'd still want to see more of that in the anime, because those were rather few as well.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

Ending
of Usagi with Seiya would be plainly bad writing, after all the
development of Mamoru with Usagi. And yes, it requires shipping goggles
to see the date in the amusement park (where Usagi thinks about Mamoru's
silence) as more than all the places and occasions Mamoru takes
them.

I said so a while back I believe. Of course the anime could never end with Seiya and Usagi getting together, that would make everything they spent developing between Usagi and Mamoru completely pointless and leave far too many problems unsolved. But no, I don't think shipping goggles are required to see that it is a fact that Mamoru and Usagi never had an episode of them just casually spending a day together and bonding, and yet Seiya and Usagi got plenty of those. This despite the fact that Mamoru had 173 episodes where the animators could have made him do that and Seiya only had 27. I still call favoritism from the animators here~.

SerenaChiba630 wrote:

Oh I agree with you on that the Anime focused
more on Usagi's friendhip but we have to remember Sailor Moon was Aim
for young audience I personaly think the Animators thought it was
inappropriate for little kids to see romantic scenes between Usagi and
Mamoru so they decide to squeeze some but not alot because the 90s was a
different period of time parents weren't as open as they are now and if
they saw there kids watching kissing scenes between Usagi and Mamoru
they would think it was a corrupted show .

That's what I think I
maybe wrong though but I also heard that the Writers didn't like
Mamoru's character so they try to cut him off. Im not sure why though. I
know he came off as a jerk at first but I just love His character. I
really love the fighting scenes between him and Usagi they were
hilarious or like you said when he was Tuxedo Mask to but unfornuately
the writers made Mamoru and very dislikable character

I
also agree with what Small Lady said Japanese culture is very different
I don't think they believe in the word Romantic. If you think about it
little kids weren't going to read the Manga, the manga would be aim for
Teenagers so maybe thats why they made it more romantic.I really though
the new anime is more like the manga Im hoping they dont change anything
it would suck if they did

I like that picture alot its soo cute how Mamoru shows doesn't let her go he's scared she will disappear aww

I really like these two

Hm, I don't agree agree with the idea that they may have toned down the romance between Usagi and Mamoru because it'd be inappropriate or something. Like I said to Small Lady earlier, Japan isn't short on romantic stories, they can do some really good stuff, even in kid's shows. And keep in mind this is the show that had an openly lesbian couple among the main case, plenty of homosexual and crossdressing characters, plenty of villains and monsters wearing the skimpiest outfits imaginable, and even sex changing Sailor Senshi in black leather outfits! xD I don't believe a few kisses and tender moments between our main couple of the show would be an issue. No, I think they toned down their relationship solely because they wanted to give full focus on the friendship and bond between the girls. So poor Mamoru got pushed to the side. But don't worry, I'm sure the new anime will do a better job at that, it was one of the biggest flaws in the old one after all. <3

And aww, those scenes are really cute too! I loved the interactions between Mamoru and Usagi before they fell in love. xD They were so cute and funny.

Oh I agree I also think there is favoritism for Seiya Im not sure if its true but I believe it is but a Moonie on the forum Mimako said the Writer didn't like Mamoru's character they try cutting him off from scenes so maybe that is why we didn't get to see alot of kissing not really sure why they wouldn't like his characters. I love his character in the Anime and Manga in both his has different personalities. Like in the Manga he's more romantic sweeter and in the Anime he's alittle more reserve and very Funny.

I really hope this new Anime shows more Usagi and Mamoru moments Can you imagine that Naoko decides instead of following the Manga she just makes it a reboot no changes Oh no I'll still watch it but I'll be alittle sad

Yesss I love how in the Manga they fall in love before knowing they were destined to be with each other awww

Look at how worried Tuxedo Kamen looks aww

i have a question though, if the japanese are not big on public affection, then why is Usagi always looking for it? case in point, when she puckers her lips at the garden and waits for a kiss. she's japanese too, so she would know that's a big no-no.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

"yeah that was definitely kind of… inappropriate, but i can see where seiya’s coming from! like okay, it’s basically a gentler version of ‘forget that douchebag, take me’, but from seiya’s pov mamoru is basically a giant bag of -censor- who couldn’t be assed to contact his worried-sick, lonely, sad girlfriend for like two months because he’s ~too busy~ for her. seiya hasn’t seen usagi together with mamoru, they don’t know about the whole epic eon-transcending star-crossed romance business they’ve got going on, there’s seriously no reason for them NOT to see mamoru as someone who just used her and dumped her without caring about her feelings."

But what has to do with it epic romance? Usagi's feelings aren't reliant on eon-transcending or something?

For Fisheye, it was enough to see photo of Usagi and Mamoru together - why Seiya couldn't notice that smile Mamoru has with Usagi?

From Usagi's point of view, which is important for me, she was hit on by somebody while she was calling her only love, during her lowest point, when her longing couldn't be kept any longer under control (what crush on Seiya?)


Also, it's very dangerous to put yourself in position of white knight saving somebody from in your opinion bad relationship.

Louchan wrote:

how much Seiya truly loves Usagi (rather than just having a "crush" like you often put it),

Do you believe that Seiya loves Usagi more than Mamoru does?

Louchan wrote:

I think Seiya's love for Usagi and Usagi's crush on Seiya was an excellent way for the animators to provide some romantic drama to the season while Mamoru was gone. Who doesn't love a good story about forbidden and unrequited love?

So why insist on Usagi having attraction to Seiya instead of leaving his feelings unrequited?

Crystalsetsuna wrote:

i have a question though, if the japanese are not big on public affection, then why is Usagi always looking for it? case in point, when she puckers her lips at the garden and waits for a kiss. she's japanese too, so she would know that's a big no-no.

As far as the anime goes, I think its because its mostly a play on humor and on that aspect. Usagi most likely knows nad understand the way society feels about it, but she likes to do it anyway. Also, its not like its a COMPLETE no-no. Its just the excessiveness in which Usagi will act can be considered embarrasing, but thats' all really a play on humor.

Besides, I'm not trying to justify Usagi's actions, I'm trying to explain why anime Mamoru most likely acts the way he does. On top of societal norms, Mamoru is very reserved and isn't very expressive in public in the way that Usagi is. Its not just Mamoru that shows either annoyance or embarrassment by the way Usagi acts in public. Her friends do it too. But as I said, its just a plot tool for comedic relief. We all know that regardless of the way Usagi acts, her friends and Mamoru still love her.

Louchan wrote:

But no, I don't think shipping goggles are required to see that it is a fact that Mamoru and Usagi never had an episode of them just casually spending a day together and bonding, and yet Seiya and Usagi got plenty of those. This despite the fact that Mamoru had 173 episodes where the animators could have made him do that and Seiya only had 27. I still call favoritism from the animators here~.

Perhaps these are my shipping goggles, but I somehow don't remember these plenty episodes of Seia and Usagi bonding and yet do Mamoru and Usagi.

And IMO for animators Seiya was just another meat to show that nobody breaks bond between Usagi and Mamoru.

Louchan wrote:

But don't worry, I'm sure the new anime will do a better job at that, it was one of the biggest flaws in the old one after all.

Paradoxically, this "biggest flaw" as you put is for some people is their greatest OTP...

SerenaChiba630 wrote:

Oh I agree I also think there is favoritism for Seiya Im not sure if its true but I believe it is but a Moonie on the forum Mimako said the Writer didn't like Mamoru's character they try cutting him off from scenes so maybe that is why we didn't get to see alot of kissing not really sure why they wouldn't like his characters. I love his character in the Anime and Manga in both his has different personalities. Like in the Manga he's more romantic sweeter and in the Anime he's alittle more reserve and very Funny.

I really hope this new Anime shows more Usagi and Mamoru moments Can you imagine that Naoko decides instead of following the Manga she just makes it a reboot no changes Oh no I'll still watch it but I'll be alittle sad

Yesss I love how in the Manga they fall in love before knowing they were destined to be with each other awww

Look at how worried Tuxedo Kamen looks aww

It wouldn't surprise me if that's true, it'd make sense of why they'd give him so little meaningful screentime. But yeah, I'm pretty sure that if Naoko gets to work alongside the animators in the upcoming anime she will want it to tell as close to her story as possible this time, so I wouldn't worry about it. And yeah, that's something I missed in the anime too, that in the manga it was very obvious that Usagi and Mamoru were falling in love with each other before they realized they're Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask, and also before finding out about their past lives as Serenity and Endymion. In the anime it felt like they squeezed in a liiiittle bit of attraction between the two of them just before they found out their true identities, which I always felt was a bit rushed and forced.

Crystalsetsuna wrote:

i have a question though, if the japanese are
not big on public affection, then why is Usagi always looking for it?
case in point, when she puckers her lips at the garden and waits for a
kiss. she's japanese too, so she would know that's a big no-no.

Well, I think it's important to keep in mind that anime such as Sailor Moon aren't trying to portray the everyday life of Japan and it's society. Looking at an anime like this as an accurate example of Japan and, in this case, how couples in Japan act would be a mistake.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

For Fisheye, it was enough to see photo of
Usagi and Mamoru together - why Seiya couldn't notice that smile Mamoru
has with Usagi?

Fisheye's situation and Seiya's situation were completely different. You can't compare the two.
Fisheye was in love with Mamoru, a man he barely knew, who's girlfriend was still around and who Mamoru was happily spending his time with.
Seiya was in love with Usagi, a girl she grew very close to, who's boyfriend wasn't around or keeping contact with her at all and Usagi was constantly suffering because of.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

Do you believe that Seiya loves Usagi more than Mamoru does?

No. I think they both love her very deeply.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

So why insist on Usagi having attraction to Seiya instead of leaving his feelings unrequited?

I've explained that (along with Lady Tuxedo) half a dozen times already. Just go back and read my old posts again.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

Perhaps these are my shipping
goggles, but I somehow don't remember these plenty episodes of Seia and
Usagi bonding and yet do Mamoru and Usagi.

Please give me the name of just one
episode where Usagi and Mamoru spend a day together on their own for
some casual bonding in the same manner that Usagi and Seiya did during
their date episode.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

Paradoxically, this "biggest flaw" as you put is for some people is their greatest OTP...

...
Mamoru and his relationship with Usagi being shoved to the side in
order to put the spotlight on the friendship between the girls is what
made Mamoru and Usagi your OTP? I think you might have misread what I said.

Small Lady wrote:

Crystalsetsuna wrote:

i have a question though, if the japanese are not big on public affection, then why is Usagi always looking for it? case in point, when she puckers her lips at the garden and waits for a kiss. she's japanese too, so she would know that's a big no-no.

As far as the anime goes, I think its because its mostly a play on humor and on that aspect. Usagi most likely knows nad understand the way society feels about it, but she likes to do it anyway. Also, its not like its a COMPLETE no-no. Its just the excessiveness in which Usagi will act can be considered embarrasing, but thats' all really a play on humor.

Besides, I'm not trying to justify Usagi's actions, I'm trying to explain why anime Mamoru most likely acts the way he does. On top of societal norms, Mamoru is very reserved and isn't very expressive in public in the way that Usagi is. Its not just Mamoru that shows either annoyance or embarrassment by the way Usagi acts in public. Her friends do it too. But as I said, its just a plot tool for comedic relief. We all know that regardless of the way Usagi acts, her friends and Mamoru still love her.

Yes - and we should remember Mamoru's lonely childchood, which greatly adds to his natural reserve and observance of social mores.

I don't think that this was meant to show Mamoru in bad light, IMO the creators believed such shyness to be quite sweet. Obviously, many people don't share this belief. While others find such silent men, who cannot make speeches, attractive. IMO, it's rather way of showing that Usagi is still very childlike despite being strong warrior.

And they actually showed other relationships as no more as hand holding or hugging on camera. And even Unazuki and her boyfriend haven't kissed yet, though they were longer together and Unazuki was older. I believe that Usagi and Mamoru actually go above cultural norm there.

IMO, also Mamoru's reserve get somewhat exaggerated by people - they still do kiss in park. Not to mention how in Stars Mamoru proposes publicly in the airport.

*adds in two cents*

Honest, Anime Mamoru has always been more of my speed. I loved how the series went on, you saw him opening up not only to Usagi, but also to her friends. Mean, he's actively trying to know who her friends are and what they're like. (though I wish that was shown more). The man's given her everything of himself and more so. Especially considering their age difference at the start and middle of the series. Because that does matter a lot in terms of how you deal with people at certain ages. He's always listening to her- even when he doesn't seem like he is. I liked the S movie because it shows a bit of realism into their relationship too.

He seems to take a lot of consideration into what she feels about certain things and tries to offer the best advice. When she's mad and he doesn't know, he goes out of his way to figure out how to make her feel better.

I like them together because he's bringing a little more level-headedness.. a certain grounding to her and she's gotten him to open up. Their relationship is a lot of give and take.


Seiya, on the other hand. I'm not going to lie, the Seiya/Usagi ship was ruined a lot for me in the past by the shippers who shiped Seiya/Usagi but constantly bashed Mamoru and making him out to be abusive and..just.. I couldn't even deal with that. So I have a natural biase towards not liking it.


Anime Seiya actually made me cringe a LOT. I understand that the Starlights didn't know Mamoru was dead- actually no one knew. However, I found Seiya to be a bit pushy and brash. I don't believe Seiya loved Usagi. I think Seiya confuses her with Kakyuu because they're very similar to each other in personality, which is why I think it was more of a hard crush than actual love. I also can't help but feel very uncomfortable every time Seiya was hitting on her because at that point, Seiya knew Usagi was taken.

That tidbit bothered me quite a bit and it only got worse the more I watched Stars because of how vunerable alone Usagi became and felt. I felt like Seiya was actually using this moment of weakness in Usagi to try and get her to leave Mamoru (who can't help that he's dead) to be with her even though Seiya has a duty much like the Sol senshi that would cause a lot of conflict of interest.

Basically, I don't think Seiya would make too much of a good lover for Usagi. If Usagi did recipocate Seiya's feelings, I feel that the relationship would've only lasted at best- two years. I think it would've eventually have settled into more of being friends than actual lovers.

Ah, I'm not even sure if any of this makes sense but that's what I think of it.

Woo, this thread lives again? Sweeeet!
Ktenshi, I think it's a terrible shame that fans who go too far ruined something for you in the anime, and I can definitely recognize what that's like. I don't have a whole lot to say about the things you bring up as most of them are purely opinion based, but there's one part I'd like to address...

Ktenshi wrote:

I don't believe Seiya loved Usagi. I think Seiya confuses her with Kakyuu because they're very similar to each other in personality, which is why I think it was more of a hard crush than actual love.

This is an argument I've seen quite a few times but I've never felt like I truly understand. First and foremost, while we only got to see very little of Kakyuu in the anime, she seems to be nothing like Usagi. She seemed like a very calm, quiet and mature woman, unlike Usagi's loud and childishly adorable self. Second, while the anime does strongly hint that Seiya and Kakyuu might have had a thing for each other, to me it feels clear that Seiya no longer feels that way about Kakyuu. Even after she reappears Seiya continues, until the very last episode, to love Usagi. During the scene where Kakyuu is leaning against Seiya's shoulder while she's singing, Seiya thinks back to when they were all together on Kinmoku and we get a flashback of her holding hands with Kakyuu. Then suddenly, the image of Kakyuu is replaced with Usagi. I think this should speak volumes by itself that Usagi has replaced Kakyuu in Seiya's heart. In the manga it's different, there it's quite obvious that Seiya only has feelings for Usagi because she reminds her of Kakyuu, she downright says so herself. But in the anime... I can't see that at all, so I'd really appreciate it if anyone who believes this could explain it to me a bit in more detail.

Louchan wrote:

Woo, this thread lives again? Sweeeet!
Ktenshi, I think it's a terrible shame that fans who go too far ruined something for you in the anime, and I can definitely recognize what that's like. I don't have a whole lot to say about the things you bring up as most of them are purely opinion based, but there's one part I'd like to address...

Ktenshi wrote:

I don't believe Seiya loved Usagi. I think Seiya confuses her with Kakyuu because they're very similar to each other in personality, which is why I think it was more of a hard crush than actual love.

This is an argument I've seen quite a few times but I've never felt like I truly understand. First and foremost, while we only got to see very little of Kakyuu in the anime, she seems to be nothing like Usagi. She seemed like a very calm, quiet and mature woman, unlike Usagi's loud and childishly adorable self. Second, while the anime does strongly hint that Seiya and Kakyuu might have had a thing for each other, to me it feels clear that Seiya no longer feels that way about Kakyuu. Even after she reappears Seiya continues, until the very last episode, to love Usagi. During the scene where Kakyuu is leaning against Seiya's shoulder while she's singing, Seiya thinks back to when they were all together on Kinmoku and we get a flashback of her holding hands with Kakyuu. Then suddenly, the image of Kakyuu is replaced with Usagi. I think this should speak volumes by itself that Usagi has replaced Kakyuu in Seiya's heart. In the manga it's different, there it's quite obvious that Seiya only has feelings for Usagi because she reminds her of Kakyuu, she downright says so herself. But in the anime... I can't see that at all, so I'd really appreciate it if anyone who believes this could explain it to me a bit in more detail.

Heh, yeah, though I never try to blame the character themselves for things that fans seem to ruin. (meaning I try to be fair to them when I write and have to write them in.)

It's been a few years since I've seen Stars, (Ha, probably about five..maybe six?) so my memory of it is a little fuzzy but some scenes left strong impressions on me. Usagi maybe loud and childish, but she has moments where she is not. Where she CAN be quiet, pensive, and mature. Her childishness is only part of a whole. I believe Seiya has seen that side as well, which can be taken as she's similar to Kakyuu in that. Not to mention, both Kakyuu and Usagi have that ..something. Not sure how to explain it, but they have it.

Though, it's probably me seeing that, because I read Stars before actually seeing the Anime itself, so for me- I saw it as Usagi reminding Seiya of Kakyuu in certain ways.

As for similarity between Usagi and Kakuyuu - the essential thing is that Seiya himself notices this similarity, despite their differences. (IIRC, other Starlights don't, do they?)

Kakuyuu might seem a little more serious and mature, but as you said, Louchan, we didn't see her much (unfortunately) and we should remember that she is in strained circumstances with her planet destroyed, being seeked by Galaxia, seriously wounded and having important mission, on which depends the fate of universe. Also, Usagi in Stars isn't so loud as in SuperS and much more mature. They also have similar "light", as Princesses and leaders of their group.

Ktenshi wrote:

*adds in two cents*

Honest, Anime Mamoru has always been more of my speed. I loved how the series went on, you saw him opening up not only to Usagi, but also to her friends. Mean, he's actively trying to know who her friends are and what they're like. (though I wish that was shown more). The man's given her everything of himself and more so. Especially considering their age difference at the start and middle of the series. Because that does matter a lot in terms of how you deal with people at certain ages. He's always listening to her- even when he doesn't seem like he is. I liked the S movie because it shows a bit of realism into their relationship too.

He seems to take a lot of consideration into what she feels about certain things and tries to offer the best advice. When she's mad and he doesn't know, he goes out of his way to figure out how to make her feel better.

I like them together because he's bringing a little more level-headedness.. a certain grounding to her and she's gotten him to open up. Their relationship is a lot of give and take.


Seiya, on the other hand. I'm not going to lie, the Seiya/Usagi ship was ruined a lot for me in the past by the shippers who shiped Seiya/Usagi but constantly bashed Mamoru and making him out to be abusive and..just.. I couldn't even deal with that. So I have a natural biase towards not liking it.


Anime Seiya actually made me cringe a LOT. I understand that the Starlights didn't know Mamoru was dead- actually no one knew. However, I found Seiya to be a bit pushy and brash. I don't believe Seiya loved Usagi. I think Seiya confuses her with Kakyuu because they're very similar to each other in personality, which is why I think it was more of a hard crush than actual love. I also can't help but feel very uncomfortable every time Seiya was hitting on her because at that point, Seiya knew Usagi was taken.

That tidbit bothered me quite a bit and it only got worse the more I watched Stars because of how vunerable alone Usagi became and felt. I felt like Seiya was actually using this moment of weakness in Usagi to try and get her to leave Mamoru (who can't help that he's dead) to be with her even though Seiya has a duty much like the Sol senshi that would cause a lot of conflict of interest.

Basically, I don't think Seiya would make too much of a good lover for Usagi. If Usagi did recipocate Seiya's feelings, I feel that the relationship would've only lasted at best- two years. I think it would've eventually have settled into more of being friends than actual lovers.

Ah, I'm not even sure if any of this makes sense but that's what I think of it.

Yes, it all makes perfect sense - I agree with most of it - except that rather two months at best, IMO...

(And I'm bothered more how Usagi is presented in this ship than Mamoru).

And great that somebody likes Mamoru!

Yeah, like someone else mentioned, everyone seemed to hate him, but the more I looked at his character and the circumstances around him, the more I came to like him. (and basically all other characters that get hated on- Like Masaya from Tokyo Mew Mew, Kaldur/Lagoon Boy from Yj and so on).

I just think, a lot of people just don't understand the social expectations on him - in Japan vs. what we think of in the US (where PDA is no biggie and ect.).

Yes, exactly. I actually believe that they are supposed to be seen as quite daring for the norms.

Which kinda makes Seiya seem extra strange, but he has the excuse of being a Musician and thus exempted from the standard rules, I think. That's why no one would probably bat and eyelash at them.

Seiya has rather the excuse of being the alien , though IMO he still should respect Usagi's boundaries. Especially that she was extra careful not not to give anyone the wrong idea about her and Seiya, especially Mamoru.

When it comes to these pairs I have different opinions regarding Anime and Manga.

In the anime I would have to say the chemistry between Seiya and Usagi is much more heated and felt then anime Mamoru and Usagi. Mamoru and Usagi had amazing chemistry the first season and directly after that it just went straight down hill and felt forced and wasn't lovey dovey or even fiery passionate.

In the manga Usagi and Mamoru have a beautiful romance. Still not that "love" feel you can get from other romance manga's but I still feel a connection from Mamoru and USagi mangawise and think they fit well here.

Anime-wise, I've mainly been a Usagi/Seiya fan. I actually like this ship in all of the other versions of Sailor Moon, but I particularly like the chemistry that they had in the anime. Usagi/Mamoru had some wonderful chemistry in the first season, like nerf-or-nothing mentioned, but for me it just went downhill after that. Not that I dislike Usagi/Mamoru at all in the anime, no no, but its probably my least favorite version of their relationship.

This might seem blunt, but in the anime I think that the only reason that Usagi and Mamoru are together was because they both wanted to have Chibiusa.

Other than that, I see nothing between them. in Stars, I tihnk Usagi would have dated Seyia is it weren't for Chibiusa

Manga is a very different story. They are so amazing in the manga

That's a good point there as well, Saturn Skyy. I feel that if the R Season had never occurred in the anime, that the two of them had never met Chibiusa when she traveled back in time and had grown so attached to her, then they would have eventually grown apart and ultimately split up.

I doubt they would've broken apart. For one, the whole Break up thing was a direct result of Chibiusa and King Endymion to be honest.

Chibiusa because she's the one that stole the Silver Crystal, thus literally actually leaving Queen defenseless, and King Endymion because he's the one that sent the test to Mamoru and then to Usagi as well, ( I think he sent one to her.)

Otherwise, since they JUST got back together after the Al and En thing, they wouldn't drift apart. After all, before Chibiusa comes back, they seemed pretty happy and not only that in her timeline, she hasn't done it yet. So it implies that they stayed together and all that lovely bits.

So even without Chibiusa, they would've been together. (Especially in another version with PGSM, where Chibiusa obviously is not present.)

Me, I liked Seiya, Manga wise, but really I didn't like her in the Anime at all. A lot of it has to do with her invading Usagi's personal space and not being respectful that this girl doesn't need a boyfriend but a friend that wouldn't use the opportunity to try and guilt her into loving them instead.

That's how I read it. Usagi is hurt, She's only known seiya a few months, the boyfriend she had is missing- and to tell the truth I'm surprised no one on the Team thought this was weird that he's missing. He has no one else, who's going to look for him if that happened? Why aren't they suspicious? - and she's hurting. she doesn't need a romantic interest, what she needed was to heal and a crutch.

I don't think Usagi would've dated Seiya in Stars because of chibiusa. In fact in one epsiode, chibiusa had disappeared from a picture and it is like no one noticed at all, least of all Usagi.

But guess who she's calling for?
Mamoru

Who is she thinking of when she's with Seiya?

Mamoru

If she was so into Seiya, then why isn't she thinking about how -Seiya smelled, or how Seiya did things? She's not. She's still on Mamoru and still loved him.

I also hate the implication that Usagi should've cheated is a thing. That's not her, she's not the type to cheat on someone she loves just because someone else showed her a little attention. She's not that weak hearted girl. She's gone through hell to get the guy -she- wanted and no one but Usagi will decide who she'll end up with.

(Which is why Anime Seiya drove me nuts because he's pushed himself in trying to be that person and she obviously is either A. Oblivious or B. Ignoring his advances.)

R gave us Mamoru/Usagi without the past in the first half of the second season with Al and En. Usagi, not Mamoru, had the choice to let their relationship go. It wasn't that she lacked suitors or anything, she wanted to be with him. He obviously fell in love with her and defended her even without his memories of being with her.

So, yeah, I think they would've ended up together regardless. (especially considering the theme for them is a Miracle Romance.).


Now I'm not saying no one should ship Seiya/Usagi. I'm not. Mean I liked pairings that are different from the canon ones. (Say in YJ I don't like a single pairing until second season. and only then I liked La'gaan/M'gann.) So I can understand why people would like Seiya/Usagi together. yes they seem to have chemistry. So why not?


But the evidence is that Usagi wants Mamoru. That she didn't consider Seiya that way. Everything in the show says that Mamoru wanted to be with Usagi. He's died, how many times for Usagi? Thrown himself in harms way how many times? Indulged her childishness and had gone nearly broke to appease her? Has given her advice, listened and helped her? Everything he's ever done was in consideration of her. The Break up, the make up, everything. He wants the best for her- that's why he reminds her about her homework so much, he wants to keep her cheerful- that's why he doesn't mind opening up and sometimes even acts silly because she's sad.

Seiya doesn't know Usagi like that. Seiya's only known this girl for a few months or less and got a crush. I don't consider it love with Seiya as Seiya is just one in a long line of guys that's found things about Usagi attractive. (Lets tick them off: Umino, Al, Diamond- only Super and SuperS didn't give her that 'there's a guy that likes you' thing.)

So it's obvious she was going to stay with Mamoru in the end. That's her choice and her decision to make it work.

I agree Sailor Ares and Saturn Skyy mainly because they did break up so often, and they didn't particularly fall in love in the anime. While they had been falling in love in the first season, they never fell, they just kind of accepted the role and didn't question it. That doesn't mean they didn't enjoy it, that just means they didn't have a very strong bond to build off of, at least not in this new life and as we've seen Serenity is vastly different from Usagi and they're love could have also been effected in this new life.

I imagine if the Dark Kingdom hadn't attacked, they'd have found each other, teased each other and fallen in love but they didn't get that chance, instead they were reliving a love that had died in the past instead of being given the chance to let that love be reborn like they were.

If it weren't for Chibiusa they would have fallen apart. The only glue holding them together was their past relationship. They don't really have chemistry in the anime.

Of course Mamoru is going to protect her, and of course they love each other but it seems to me Usagi loves Mamoru a lot more then he does her. She's a 14 year old girl living a magical dream and he's an adult with vastly different interests and personality(Yes opposites attract but that typically causes passion, which we saw in the first season but that building relationship skipped all the important parts). That passion is gone and we see that because he doesn't fight her. They don't flirt, or banter of even tease each other much. Mamoru appears to almost always be sighing, or sweat dropping or just... almost patronizing. Like he's dealing with a little sister rather then a lover.

Before she found out about Endymoin and Sailor Moon she was in love with Motoki. She's easily enamored with others and we see that with many times over, even when it came to the female Haruka.

Anime Seiya and Usagi had that same chemistry of Mamoru and Usagi in the first season. They have the passion Mamoru and Usagi lost.

Usagi isn't swayed because her heart is breaking. She is worried about Mamoru, she is sad he won't answer her so all that stress keeps Mamoru constantly on her mind. If we removed Chibiusa from the equation and Mamoru was fine and healthy in America most likely Usagi would have fallen for Seiya's persistence and affections.

Manga-wise I didn't really see that Seiya liked Usagi romantically like he did in the anime. He was a little taken with her but not much which is why he didn't press anything. His fleetingness in the manga reminded me more of Haruka's first impressions on Usagi with the kiss and no actual intention for a reciprocation of love.

nerf-or-nothing wrote:

Mamoru appears to almost always be sighing, or sweat dropping or just... almost patronizing. Like he's dealing with a little sister rather then a lover.

This. THIS is my issue with the anime relationship!

Ktenshi: I agree that Usagi should/would not have cheated. Personally I think that, at least for the time, Usagi and Mamoru would have drifted apart. Perhaps when they were older (and Usagi a bit more mature) they would have come back to each other.

I agree she definitely wouldn't cheat, she cares far too much for people to do that to someone, especially after Minako had confided in her about her own lost love. While they were cheating physically, emotionally it still felt like it :c

nerf-or-nothing wrote:

I agree Sailor Ares and Saturn Skyy mainly because they did break up so often, and they didn't particularly fall in love in the anime. While they had been falling in love in the first season, they never fell, they just kind of accepted the role and didn't question it. That doesn't mean they didn't enjoy it, that just means they didn't have a very strong bond to build off of, at least not in this new life and as we've seen Serenity is vastly different from Usagi and they're love could have also been effected in this new life.

I imagine if the Dark Kingdom hadn't attacked, they'd have found each other, teased each other and fallen in love but they didn't get that chance, instead they were reliving a love that had died in the past instead of being given the chance to let that love be reborn like they were.

If it weren't for Chibiusa they would have fallen apart. The only glue holding them together was their past relationship. They don't really have chemistry in the anime.

Of course Mamoru is going to protect her, and of course they love each other but it seems to me Usagi loves Mamoru a lot more then he does her. She's a 14 year old girl living a magical dream and he's an adult with vastly different interests and personality(Yes opposites attract but that typically causes passion, which we saw in the first season but that building relationship skipped all the important parts). That passion is gone and we see that because he doesn't fight her. They don't flirt, or banter of even tease each other much. Mamoru appears to almost always be sighing, or sweat dropping or just... almost patronizing. Like he's dealing with a little sister rather then a lover.

Before she found out about Endymoin and Sailor Moon she was in love with Motoki. She's easily enamored with others and we see that with many times over, even when it came to the female Haruka.

Anime Seiya and Usagi had that same chemistry of Mamoru and Usagi in the first season. They have the passion Mamoru and Usagi lost.

Usagi isn't swayed because her heart is breaking. She is worried about Mamoru, she is sad he won't answer her so all that stress keeps Mamoru constantly on her mind. If we removed Chibiusa from the equation and Mamoru was fine and healthy in America most likely Usagi would have fallen for Seiya's persistence and affections.

Manga-wise I didn't really see that Seiya liked Usagi romantically like he did in the anime. He was a little taken with her but not much which is why he didn't press anything. His fleetingness in the manga reminded me more of Haruka's first impressions on Usagi with the kiss and no actual intention for a reciprocation of love.

Again, it's not because of Chibiusa they stayed together.

Lets try this one more time: It's not because of Chibiusa they stayed together. There is NO evidence whatsoever that she's the reason they remained together. If anything, she is proof that they stayed together because they loved each other. If Chibiusa was not in the equation, they would've still gotten together.

In Stars she was erased from existence in the anime. You see it in the image when Usagi is calling Mamoru again and Chibiusa is Absent from the picture. However, no one shows any distress at this. Pluto doesn't act like anything happened, it's business as usual and no one mentions her or even seemingly remembers.

However, Usagi is still calling for Mamoru.

See:

Edit: FOUND IT. Gods I can't remember the ep it's from though but here's the original.






And of course she is going to -show- her love for Mamoru more than he does. Most of the time, men don't show their emotions as much as women do. Socially, Mamoru's life doesn't give way for that. He's had everything stacked against him so yes, he's not going to show it as much. It doesn't mean he loves her any less or any less fiercely. And honstly, I liked how their relationship fell into something pretty peaceful. Not every relationship needs bickering for it to work or show passion. Because, you know, people are different and they show their love for others differently.

Wait, exactly how many times have Usagi and mamoru broke up?

Once.

They broke up one time.

Everything else happened beyond either one's control. First Season seperation? Beyond their control. End of the season? That was all Usagi and her wish there that separated them then.

They only broke up once and it was him that ended it to save her because he's simply not that selfish enough to put her in danger if he can do something about it.

As for age difference- We only know he's in college. We don't know how old he is. We only can assume he's college age: Which can be anywhere between 18-21. He's never seen actually drinking or bringing drinks home, so he must be under the age to drink. (meaning he could be 19.)

Therefore, he's actually in a good age range for her.

Seiya, we don't know much or anything about Seiya. We don't know what Seiya's background is. We don't know if Seiya was alone growing up or not. We do know that Seiya was socialized and trained more than Mamoru was, therefore more expressive and less restrained by whatever society Seiya was part of.

That does not mean Seiya is better for Usagi.

And to be frank, Usagi is 15 yrs old almost 16, she should've been acting less like a ten year old and more like her age. The other girls aren't as childish as she is-but then again both the girls and Mamoru had more difficult lives that required them to grow up faster than Usagi did.

But I don't believe they would've drifted away though. There's so much that ties them together now - more than Chibiusa. All the battles they fought together, all the things they have seen, all the times they had to rely solely on each other.

There's nothing wrong with a relationship that's relaxed and easy going.

Hey chill out, this is a debate so peoples opinions are naturally going to differ.

I am chilled.

Just pointing out that there's a difference between what is and what isn't.

There's never a point in the anime that stated that they were together because of Chibiusa. Or stayed because of her. If anything, they keep trying to be alone together when she is there. (Rightfully so because any couple wants a little alone time without anyone else around. Though makes you wonder if that was the sole point of her going into the past now- so the future NQS and King Endymion would have a lot of alone time.)

And I know people will have different opinions. I mentioned that before in a post of mine above. I don't care if people ship Seiya/Usagi. That's fine. I don't really like it myself, but hey go on and rock out to it.

I'm just stating, Anime wise, there's a lot of reasons why they (Usagi/Mamoru) still work out more than Seiya/Usagi would.

And that too, is an opinion.

What is and what isn't is only your opinion and by saying....

Quote :

Again, it's not because of Chibiusa they stayed together.

Lets try this one more time: It's not because of Chibiusa they stayed together.

Was actually kind of rude. We are entitled to have our own opinions and what your saying isnt fact, it's opinion. for all we know, they could have stayed together because of Chibiusa, if you don't like other peoples opinions you shouldn't debate.

Hi guys, lets keep this thread civil. If you are having an issue, please try to sort it out privately over PM. If any of you have any problems, don't hesitate to contact me as I'm watching over these threads while we are going through the moderator application process.

Thank you for understanding. <3