Sorry Haine!!! We are all getting pretty worked up over this

agreed. and i don't want to see anymore double posting. there's no reason you can't respond to multiple people in one long post. there are no rules against long posts, but there is a rule against double posting.

as someone said, YES. this is manga only. i think we can all agree manga-wise, there is no real crush from Seiya on Usagi, and the only one Usagi can think about is Mamoru.

anime-wise can be a completely different story. so let's please try to leave the manga out unless it's a cross example, like the spoiling thing of Chibiusa. like how Mamoru gets Chibiusa a watch, but forgets to get Usagi a birthday gift too.

Moonlight lady, please stop being so emotional. Usagi is a character, and this is a debate on whether she would choose a destiny made for her or one she made for herself. this is not a thread to convert everyone and anyone to the pairing of Mamoru and Usagi. they are not perfect.

Sorry for double posting, I didn't see Haine's post until after I had already sent my original post, next time I'll just edit my old one.

Alright.

Dears, I know you all have very strong opinions. And while it is very nice to see the theories and debates area booming again, we must keep in mind that this is a friendly debate. It's just an anime, no matter how much we love it or its characters. We don't need to get heated or anything like that over such topics. We are all moonies and we will all have differing opinions.

None of you are in trouble, just make sure to keep yourselves in check. If you feel someone has said something that is upsetting to you, rather than reply right away, give yourself a few minutes away from this thread before you post your reply. If someone says anything personal against you and it makes you uncomfortable, please PM me on the matter, as I am stepping in for Sailor Jupiter while she is on LOA.

Remember, we are here to have fun and share ideas with this brilliant series. ^^ and also make sure to respect Haine, your theories and debates moderator. You may not agree with what she says, but you must respect her authority when she says everyone needs to relax and whatnot.

- Sailor Mars

I actually just went back over both posts for the site rules, and while I respect you, I would like to point out that no double posting should be added to the rules, because it's not there. I just double checked because I didn't remember it being there when I joined.

Hmm. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I'll be sure to see about having that added. ^^

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i think we can all agree manga-wise, there is no real crush from Seiya on Usagi, and the only one Usagi can think about is Mamoru.

And in anime Mamoru isn't the only one Usagi can think about? She writes to him almost everyday, telling almost everything of her life.

And I see that manga Seiya has too crush on Usagi, but they are both more battle-focused.

I honestly don't get the idea that couples should break up only to get back together when they mature. It's normal for Usagi to have a lot grow at her age and it's much better to do it with Mamoru at her side. Futhermore, Mamoru may be almost an adult, but he isn't perfect and also needed to learn some things. People mature by learning from each other, not independently.

I also don't get the idea of Mamoru spoiling Chibiusa or treating her better than Usagi (except for during the break up). Mamoru is very protective, but also sensible and level-headed in treating Chibiusa. He also never takes sides in Usagi/Chibiusa quarrels, while Usagi's friends often side with Chibiusa.

I totally won't understand ever the notion that Mamoru is a jerk, treats Usagi horribly and never shown her love. So she must be a masochist, because she is very happy in this relationship. Girl has bad taste, but there is no accounting for it.

Seiya's relationship with Usagi seems to revolve mostly around Seiya's wants and needs

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And in anime Mamoru isn't the only one Usagi can think about? She writes to him almost everyday, telling almost everything of her life.

Please read my entire post. I had already said that Usagi loves Mamoru in the anime, my entire arguement was how Mamoru is not IN love with Usagi in the anime. I was cross referencing. Please read my entire comment thoroughly because you pulled a comment and said something I had already explained.

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And I see that manga Seiya has too crush on Usagi, but they are both more battle-focused.

Personally, my opinion differs from yours. How many times in the manga have we seen someone flirt and kiss Usagi? Do they all have crushes on her too? Does Haruka? In the anime Seiya made his feelings very clear. In the anime the starlights sans Seiya seemed to not appreciate Usagi until the very end. In the manga they knew who she was and they wanted her help. there was a very huge difference in the StarS saga from the anime and manga more then any other season.

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I honestly don't get the idea that couples should break up only to get back together when they mature. It's normal for Usagi to have a lot grow at her age and it's much better to do it with Mamoru at her side. Futhermore, Mamoru may be almost an adult, but he isn't perfect and also needed to learn some things. People mature by learning from each other, not independently.

Please read my comments all the way through, if you misunderstood me, like the mods said PM me. I never said they should break up and get back together when Usagi matures. I said that considering how long they stay together they might fall in love. My argument was that in the anime Mamoru is not in love, and thus if it weren't for the knowledge and actually having met his future daughter, and same for Usagi, they would have drifted apart romantically.

My opinion is that you don't need a man to grow up and it's actually NOT better for someone to grow up dependent on someone. Realistically speaking. The best relationships are those of two independent people with their lives already together, coming together. Again, speaking realistically. In relationships where one is dependent on the other often leads to mistreatment. People should want to be independant.

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I also don't get the idea of Mamoru spoiling Chibiusa or treating her better than Usagi (except for during the break up). Mamoru is very protective, but also sensible and level-headed in treating Chibiusa. He also never takes sides in Usagi/Chibiusa quarrels, while Usagi's friends often side with Chibiusa.

Anime and manga-wise Mamoru always treats Chibiusa better and that is why we see Usagi being so jealous. He has taken Chibiusa's side a numerous amount of times which has lead to fights between them and at times Usagi calls Mamoru out on whether he cares more for Chibiusa then her.

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I totally won't understand ever the notion that Mamoru is a jerk, treats Usagi horribly and never shown her love. So she must be a masochist, because she is very happy in this relationship. Girl has bad taste, but there is no accounting for it.

A lot of people would disagree. Even anime Mamoru fans can agree that Mamoru is often a jerk. If you read my comment thoroughly though, you'd see I said many any times that Mamoru DOES love Usagi but he acts as if he is not IN love with her.

This doesn't have to do with Masochism but yes, Usagi kind of is. She loves enemies in the anime. She will do anything to save them and if you go back to my previous comments I've went into further detail about this. Please read them carefully and thoroughly.

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Seiya's relationship with Usagi seems to revolve mostly around Seiya's wants and needs

Seiya seems to genuinely care for her but doesn't love her. Usagi seems to genuinely care for Mamoru and seems to be in love with him(As in love as any 14 year old can be). Mamoru cares for Usagi but in my opinion, anime-wise he is not in love with her.

Mind you these are my opinions and your opinions are yours. If you would like to debate my opinion I would like to ask you not take things out of context and misquote something I further explained.

kind of want to pop in and say i think Moonlight was quoting me...cause i recognized how i typed manga-wise, with the dash between. unless you did the same earlier somewhere i didn't notice. XD

anyway.

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And in anime Mamoru isn't the only one Usagi can think about? She writes to him almost everyday, telling almost everything of her life.

no, i don't think in the Anime Mamoru is the only one Usagi can think about. as pointed out, she had HUGE crushes on Motoki and Tuxedo Mask before she knew he was Mamoru. she saw them as two completely different people, and probably would have rushed at Tuxedo Mask if she somehow had a choice between the two.

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My opinion is that you don't need a man to grow up and it's actually NOT better for someone to grow up dependent on someone. Realistically speaking. The best relationships are those of two independent people with their lives already together, coming together. Again, speaking realistically. In relationships where one is dependent on the other often leads to mistreatment. People should want to be independant.

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People mature by learning from each other, not independently

i'm going to agree with nerf in this situation. i've had situations in my relationship where i've been very dependent or indepentent. emotional issues. when i get too dependent, it's often smothered my boyfriend. it's never good to grow up by what people expect you to be, because then you're not really growing up. you're just doing stuff to please other people. the only time people learn from other people is when they are literal children under the age of 5. they mimic their parents habits because that's what babies do. last i checked, usa was not a baby.

and yes usagi wants to make people happy, but she's ALWAYS been true to herself. she refused to kill or hurt anyone if she didn't really have to. even when her friends insisted something was a trap, and it was, she couldn't NOT go.

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kind of want to pop in and say i think Moonlight was quoting me...cause i recognized how i typed manga-wise, with the dash between. unless you did the same earlier somewhere i didn't notice. XD

sorry^^ I did said something similar (:

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i'm going to agree with nerf in this situation. i've had situations in my relationship where i've been very dependent or indepentent. emotional issues. when i get too dependent, it's often smothered my boyfriend. it's never good to grow up by what people expect you to be, because then you're not really growing up. you're just doing stuff to please other people. the only time people learn from other people is when they are literal children under the age of 5. they mimic their parents habits because that's what babies do. last i checked, usa was not a baby.

This is exactly right. My last relationship I depended far too much on my bf. He had a car, I didn't. He had his life together, education a job and I didn't. He came from a good home and I didn't but maturity wise, he was rather childish and selfish and I wasn't. He had everything handed to him from birth and he was never scolded and he could do no wrong even if he mistreated his girlfriend emotionally, mentally and physically and his family was okay with that. I've had to grow up without parents and struggle for everything I have.

My mother has based her entire life on men and being dependent on them no matter how badly they mistreated her or her kids and I see my sisters falling into that same mentality and it ALWAYS seems to end badly.

When you are dependent on someone, they tend to realize it and sometimes, most times, they will take advantage of the situation.

My sister was 16 when she first started dating this guy and he was 21, they were together for 10 years and have 2 kids. My sister doesn't even have any hobbies, she has no idea what she wants and she has built her entire life by this guy. She made a mistake and cheated on him but he had been treating her poorly for a long while and they stayed together for the kids. Now my sister still doesn't know what she wants, and she is still trying to be with one or both of these guys and isn't trying to find out who she is because she is so used to being dependent on someone else then being by herself she is scared to be alone and that is sad.

You can not expect to love someone else, unless you can love yourself first. You cannot love yourself unless you know who you are and you do not know who you are when you are a teenager, you don't get to discover that until you are well into your 20s and then someone. until you live independently and discover for yourself who you are without anyone else influencing what you like, what you don't like and so on.

Also, in my experience as I've said in previous comments, some guys want the girl to break up with them because they don't want to see her cry or be at fault so they distance themselves and act colder to the girl in hopes she will break up with them instead, which is what anime-Mamoru seems to act like. Usagi being that she never gives up on anyone wouldn't ever break up with him. I made that mistake and it ended badly, granted I don't have superpowers and a future child lol

Developmentally speaking, the relationship she is in would be incredibly inappropriate and possibly harmful to her psychosocial development.

Their relationship shows a lot of risk factors for DV, which Nerf mentioned and Usagi's identity development is almost definitely being stunted. Being single and dating is an incredibly valuable learning experience for learning about one's self, and she is missing out on it.

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Developmentally speaking, the relationship she is in would be incredibly inappropriate and possibly harmful to her psychosocial development.

Their relationship shows a lot of risk factors for DV, which Nerf mentioned and Usagi's identity development is almost definitely being stunted. Being single and dating is an incredibly valuable learning experience for learning about one's self, and she is missing out on it.

Very very true. Usagi is only 14 when they first start dating. She isn't even fully developed physically but also mentally, her brain's frontal lobe isn't even close to being fully developed at this age.

This is why I think that in the anime, if it were not for Chibiusa they would have easily drifted apart

which is why Seiya might be a better choice for Usa. by the stars series she's like...maybe 17? i dunno why, i feel 17...though maybe 16... Seiya seems closer in age to her and it feels like they BOTH learn new things together.

which is also a great thing for someone's psyche...if you're the only one learning new stuff in a relationship, it starts making you feel like you're not as good as the other person. it's mentally damaging to the self esteem if you think you have to always play catch up, which Usa seems to have slightly all through the series. we've seen her show her insecurities sometimes.

also, Usagi should be with Seiya because Seiya is CUTER. and looks awesome with his hair loose as a female. PLUS! you get the best of both worlds with Seiya! and he can understand your pain when you're on your period! Mamo can't do that. <3

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which is why Seiya might be a better choice for Usa. by the stars series she's like...maybe 17? i dunno why, i feel 17...though maybe 16... Seiya seems closer in age to her and it feels like they BOTH learn new things together.

which is also a great thing for someone's psyche...if you're the only one learning new stuff in a relationship, it starts making you feel like you're not as good as the other person. it's mentally damaging to the self esteem if you think you have to always play catch up, which Usa seems to have slightly all through the series. we've seen her show her insecurities sometimes.

also, Usagi should be with Seiya because Seiya is CUTER. and looks awesome with his hair loose as a female. PLUS! you get the best of both worlds with Seiya! and he can understand your pain when you're on your period! Mamo can't do that. <3

She's 16 in the at the end of the anime^^

I agree about the learning together.

When it comes to Seiya and Mamoru it all comes down to preference. I'm a miltishipper so I think anyone with Usagi is good. I even have a soft spot for Usagi and Rei^^ lol I know bad me.

I just like the way Seiya treats Usagi in the anime, and I adored Usagi and Mamoru in the anime in the beginning but it stopped being about them and so they lost the interest of many viewers because the show really isn't about romance, it's about the senshi.

In the manga it has a high degree of relationship building and I adore the Usagi Mamoru relationship there much better.

I like to think that at one point Seiya and Kakyuu were either in a relationship or there was an unrequited love going on. Seiya unfortunately seems to get the short end of the love more often then not :/

Mamoru is a teenager too and he also has things to learn - you speak as if he was her grandfather. Especially given his lonely childhood resulting in little experience in familial relationships.

The idea of them staying together just to create Chibiusa is totally unbelievable - yes, people can stay together for the sake of their children, but Chibiusa doesn't exist yet. And to condemn yourself and the other person for the life of unhappiness for a potential kid?

I also don't remember Mamoru taking Chibiusa side, except of the near hitting scene. He usually either tries to reconcile them or gets angry at both. And Usagi in manga is also jealous of his attention to Chibiusa, so this isn't a question of anime-Mamoru being jerk.

If Mamoru is such a jerk and doesn't love Usagi, then why her friends are jealous of their relationship? Why Luna and Chibiusa see their couple as ideal to aspire? Why do potential suitors of both resign after seeing them together?

Moonlight Lady wrote:

If Mamoru is such a jerk and doesn't love Usagi, then why her friends are jealous of their relationship? Why Luna and Chibiusa see their couple as ideal to aspire? Why do potential suitors of both resign after seeing them together?

I don't personally remember this, but given they in fact, do, it's because Usagi and Mamoru's relationship is the "ultimate romantic". It is a star crossed love story they made work out that has "transcended both life and time". That's why. Everybody wants that.

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Mamoru is a teenager too and he also has things to learn - you speak as if he was her grandfather. Especially given his lonely childhood resulting in little experience in familial relationships.

I don't speak as if he is her grandfather. I speak as if she is young, which she is. I have not even mentioned his age in this. Just maturity levels and Usagi's age. Please stop misquoting me and fully read my comments.

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The idea of them staying together just to create Chibiusa is totally unbelievable - yes, people can stay together for the sake of their children, but Chibiusa doesn't exist yet. And to condemn yourself and the other person for the life of unhappiness for a potential kid?

This is only your opinion, do not tell me mine isn't believable because people here have already commented that they believe the same. Chibiusa isn't born yet but like I had said in my previous comments(please READ them fully) they met her, they shared experiences with her and like I said, if they don't make sure she isn't born knowing she is their future daughter, it would be the SAME as KILLING her and any parent would feel the same.

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I also don't remember Mamoru taking Chibiusa side, except of the near hitting scene. He usually either tries to reconcile them or gets angry at both. And Usagi in manga is also jealous of his attention to Chibiusa, so this isn't a question of anime-Mamoru being jerk.

Mamoru took her side in the hitting scene(I believe in the subtitles she did hit Chibiusa and after what she did Usagi had every right, it's not like Usagi was abusing her.), when he was taking care of her, when Usagi was acting immature. He does it often and it is one of the many reasons why Usagi asks Mamoru if he cares more for chibiusa then he does her.

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If Mamoru is such a jerk and doesn't love Usagi, then why her friends are jealous of their relationship? Why Luna and Chibiusa see their couple as ideal to aspire? Why do potential suitors of both resign after seeing them together?

Again STOP MISQUOTING ME! I said he acts like a jerk sometimes YES and he does. I never said he DID NOT LOVE HER. I said he is not IN love with her from how he acts in the anime. Manga-wise the guy is head over heels and treats her right.

Can we just agree to disagree because it bothers me a bit that you are taking my words out of context and there is nothing wrong with people having different opinions.

Cooled down? good =)

My lovely moonies~
this is a third reminder, take it easy ^_^
Please, once again, calm down,breath, think about it a few minutes, then post again. i'm feeling even more tension now than before.
i recommend you to step out of the thread for a few minutes if you feel someone upset you with a comment. remember, we're debating, this is a friendly debate about 2 fictional characters.



using this again just in case.

your lovely MOD

Haine~

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I don't personally remember this, but given they in fact, do, it's because Usagi and Mamoru's relationship is the "ultimate romantic". It is a star crossed love story they made work out that has "transcended both life and time". That's why. Everybody wants that.

Girls say they are jealous during Usagi's birthday, when she leaves them to reconcile with Mamoru, when they dance at the party, and when Mamoru gives her engagement ring. They do it because of Usagi and Mamoru's interactions, not their transcending life and time. Similarly Luna in S movie and Chibiusa in SuperS see their relationship as model one. Potential suitors who resign after seeing their love - Rei, Ali, Anna, Fiore, Saori and Fisheye even didn't know about star crossed love story.

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I said he acts like a jerk sometimes

Actually, at first you said he acts like a jerk often, which is very different. Sometimes Usagi too isn't all saint - still you put the whole blame on Mamoru for it and keep her exempt.

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Manga-wise the guy is head over heels and treats her right.

And where anime-wise he doesn't treat her right? Because your main charge against Mamoru, attention to Chibiusa is also prominent in manga.

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do not tell me mine isn't believable because people here have already commented that they believe the same.

It's unbelievable psychologically - nobody would behave like this. People who believe this are just Usagi/Seiya shippers, who invented this to discredit Mamoru and Mamoru/Usagi pairing.

Not having child in future isn't killing - they could have kids with other people.

There is also possibility of their having Chibiusa without being together.

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Mamoru took her side in the hitting scene(I believe in the subtitles she did hit Chibiusa and after what she did Usagi had every right, it's not like Usagi was abusing her.), when he was taking care of her, when Usagi was acting immature.

Usagi had every right to be furious at Chibiusa, but IMO I understand his drawing the line at hitting - he didn't try to stop her from screaming at Chibiusa.

When Usagi and Chibiusa bicker, Mamoru does act as neutral party.

And are you implying that Mamoru shouldn't be taking care of Chibiusa, because Usagi is jealous?

You are just so funny. Someone can be on your side and you argue someone on your side. XD

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often,

Often does not mean all the time therefore yes, it is the same as sometimes.

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And where anime-wise he doesn't treat her right? Because your main charge against Mamoru, attention to Chibiusa is also prominent in manga.

Read all my comments, I am tired of repeating myself.

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It's unbelievable psychologically - nobody would behave like this. People who believe this are just Usagi/Seiya shippers, who invented this to discredit Mamoru and Mamoru/Usagi pairing.

Not having child in future isn't killing - they could have kids with other people.

There is also possibility of their having Chibiusa without being together.

That is beyond rude and untrue. I am a mutli shipper. I ship usa and mamoru as much as I ship usa and ruka, and setsuna and mamoru and usa and rei. People seriously need to stop throwing ships around like that makes someones words true or untrue. It is not unbelievable, you just can't accept someone can have a different opinion then you. If that is the case, stop debating this is why we keep getting yelled at.

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Usagi had every right to be furious at Chibiusa, but IMO I understand his drawing the line at hitting - he didn't try to stop her from screaming at Chibiusa.

When Usagi and Chibiusa bicker, Mamoru does act as neutral party.

And are you implying that Mamoru shouldn't be taking care of Chibiusa, because Usagi is jealous?

Just stop. I already asked you to stop, please just stop this is getting childish now.

Nerf, just don't respond all together if she keeps on. I too, believe the same things you do, and yet I never pair Seiya and Usagi together. It's just generalizations, and it's getting kind of boring.

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you get the best of both worlds with Seiya! and he can understand your pain when you're on your period! Mamo can't do that. <3

O_o

YES!!! Best point of the whole thread.

Otherwise guys, that seems to be going nowhere ans we are just getting angry and repeating ourselves. Looks like we won't be agreeing. Maybe we should head over to anther thread to debate for a bit.

I agree, at this point it's just everyone's personal opinions against everyone's personal opinions which is pointless to debate anyway because opinions aren't based on fact but individual preference :/

Yes dear. This thread was dead for a reason ^^ thank you for reviving it, but it seems we've just gone in the same circle as before.

Then someone should lock these types of threads so people know not to comment them.

For now, i don't think that's necessary =)
everyone has the right to share their opinions, but
if something similar like this happens again
i'm gonna lock the thread.

Well, to be fair, we really don't like to lock threads because it's not fair to new members that come along and maybe want to comment. However, if you cycle through the thread to get a general idea of what went down, you will see that people went in circles a lot and then eventually, everyone just dropped out of the debate, leaving it be. Which, you very well could too if you get flustered. Just because you decide to chime in doesn't mean you cannot take yourself out of a debate. ^^ Don't ever feel like you cannot withdraw if you find yourself too flustered or just not enjoying the debate anymore.

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Often does not mean all the time therefore yes, it is the same as sometimes.

No, "often" is completely different from "sometimes", actually.

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this is a debate on whether she would choose a destiny made for her or one she made for herself

I really can't understand the notion that Usagi somehow doesn't make for herself her relationship woth Mamoru. Which is also expressed in subtitle for this thread, which is biased. Their past life wouldn't be enough to create their relationship in present.

Synonyms: as a rule, as is the custom, as is usual, as usual, by and large, commonly, consistently, customarily, frequently, generally, habitually, in the main, mainly, more often than not, most often, mostly, naturally, normally, now and again, now and then, occasionally, often, on the whole, once and again, ordinarily, per usual, regularly, routinely, sometimes

http://thesaurus.com/browse/often

Yes it means pretty much the same thing it is definitely not completely different, it's hardly different at all.

When it comes to the entire thread, can't we all just agree to disagree?

It's your opinion that Mamoru and Usagi have a loving relationship in the anime and that he treats her right and they have an ideal relationship and that it wasn't their past life being the main reason why they are in love and are together. That's fine, it's your opinion and you are entitled, just like I am entitled to my own opinion and so is everyone else