i never really thought of that but i always thought that he was a wee bit older and in other animes that i've seen i noticed the guy is usually always older than the girl. i don't really think he's a pedo though since in the anime they really never "interact" with each other such as kissing and holding hands.

I was so sure that I had replied this topic before I get internetless...

Sailor Venus wrote:

It hints at sexy time many times in the manga, but we don't know how far in the relationship or how serious they got in their past lives.

Sailor Jupiter wrote:

Oh my gosh, I meant to post a topic about that cap! I was so shocked when I saw it and terribly confused. Why in the world did they show Usagi and Mamoru when Michiru was talking about Adam and Eve? O.o So odd. Normally I might think that this was implying what Usagi and Mamoru had done together but the way the scene was played out does not seem to line up. This cap is being played while Michiru is talking about Adam and Eve and then you see the girls' watching her. It is never implied to be Usagi's thoughts. I think the animators did that just to be romantic for the fans.

I actually have to disagree with Spoons and B-chan in terms of Serenity and Endymion -- I always felt that those were the two who definitely had sex and they were shown the most clearly. To begin with, the two seem more mature and there are a lot more intimate moments of them. As to the implications of them being more intimate, I always considered the scene on the right as proving so.


As for Usagi and Mamoru is the manga, that is a little more iffy. I always thought this scene in the manga was Naoko's insinuation that the two finally did have sex, because Usagi is blushing and her blouse (which was beneath her dress) is no longer there -- she now has Mamoru's shirt draped over her shoulders.


However, I was later proven wrong from this panel in the SuperS season. In another translation she says, "Just when I thought I was grown up enough for it." I think either way, it is clear what she is talking about.


I would not be surprised if they slept together past this point, but I always assumed that their first bedroom scene at the end of the manga was their first time.

In the anime, Usagi states in the beginning of the Stars season that she and Mamoru have not had sex (they are sitting on the park bench and she is all blushy and such). She is sixteen by that time, so even if they have sex afterwards, the odd age gap between her and Mamoru has pretty much ended.

Well, honestly, I think that they did it. The way that Usagi asked what Mamoru wanted for his birthday and the whole scene was romantic, showing how much girls want their first time to be perfect, with their lover and all these things (okay, when i say perfect i don't include a little girl in Mamoru's apartment, to be honest! :lolz: ). Also, reading an article in portuguese about feminism in Sailor Moon, I couldn't agree more with what's said and if they had to have sex, it would because Usagi would want it. The whole manga shows a lot about feminism/women being in control of their own lives and it's shown by Serenity/Endymion (of course they slept together! Not only because it's shown in the manga, but if we think about how they really loved each other and ho they were committed to each other, we can understand that it was a natural step - also, in another pov, it would explain why Serenity was so devastated by Endymion's death: he was the man that she loved and would give anything for, including herself).

About the Eve/Adam reference, well, I think that it was more like translating it to the greek mythology, where Eve/Adam were more like Selene and Endymion, except that Endymion was asleep and they had 50 children together (the menae) and they started to populate Aeolia/Aetolia - and it was the beginning of the Elean civilization.

They could have had sex in the Black Moon arc, without having PIV intercourse (which is what comes to mind for most people when they think of their "first time"). Too often we assume that PIV intercourse is the only kind of "real sex" out there, but I disagree. So I think it's very possible that Usagi and Mamoru had sex early on in the manga, but at least, as of that moment in Supers, Usagi's hymen was still intact.

Most people are socialized to place a huge emphasis on the kind of sex that can make a woman pregnant.

This is true. I don't doubt they were having some sort of sexual activities. But i think we were mainly talking about them "sleeping" together.

Sailor Jupiter wrote:

Ah, that cap. When I watched that episode for the first time as a teen/adult with my sister I was like "Wait, is that Usagi naked? With Mamoru? Also Naked? Together? Usagi has nipples? "
I don't doubt they were having some sort of sexual activities. She slept with him in his bedroom, at least it looks like she did.


^^ Papa Kenji still thinks she stayed at Makoto's that night...

Honestly, the age difference doesn't bother me but to be honest it would bother me a little if Usagi was my 14 year old little sister or daughter. But it's a tv show and sometimes I forget the girls are only 14. I always thought Mamoru was 18, first year of college. Not a big deal, even Usagi mentions their big age difference once.

Sailor Mercury wrote:

But isn't there that episode early in the S season regarding first kisses, and when Michiru begins to talk about the topic, there's a brief cut to two nude silhouettes which bear an uncanny resemblance to Mamoru and Usagi? I'm not suggesting that seals the deal, but that whole episode was rife with suggestion, and it ends with Usagi asking Mamoru about the time they first kissed, and it's all rather awkward (Mamoru's faulty memory notwithstanding).

I can remember though in the Stars season when Mamoru was brainwashed and Usagi was trying to ask him whether he wanted to take their relationship 'to the next level' though so hmm. Inconsistencies! Haha.

In the anime version of Sailor Moon, Usagi is 14 when she first starts dating Mamoru and he's already a college student. Is their relationship even legal in Japan? How is it that Haruka and Michiru's relationship got censored in the dub but Usagi and Mamoru's relationship made it past the censors?

I'm feeling like this is closely related to this topic right here http://www.thegalaxycauldronforums.com/t320-debate-mamoru-chiba-early-college-student-or-old-head-pedophile talks about Mamoru's age, like how old he really is, his relationship, things like that.

Also, homosexual relationships get a much bigger censor than a man and a woman relationship, even if there is an age gap. That's just common knowledge. It isn't as bad today, since you see more shows having homosexual secondary characters or even main characters (South of Nowhere for example <3), but back then, of course there was a bigger censor.

The age of consent in Japan is 13, so it's legal - besides, their relationship was censored compared to manga. In anime they did nothing which would require wondering about legality.

Also Usagi and Mamoru's relationship is more central to the plot and censoring it would be impossible - whereas converting Haruka and Michiru into romantic two girl friendship seems to be much easier.

Aren't Usagi and Mamoru closer in age in the manga than in the anime?

Yeah, Usagi's 2nd year middle school, Mamoru's 2nd year high school, so they're just 3 years apart (middle school is only 3 years)

Huh, that's interesting! I wonder why they changed it for the anime? But yeah, in the anime, that's so unrealistic. Like how would they even relate to each other when they're at such different stages of their lives? How could he stand hanging out with her friends and all of that? I mean, I know it's because he loves her, but it's so unrealistic that he would even like her in the first place. They should have stuck with the manga ages, I mean that's a LITTLE more realistic.

This is indeed quite related to Debate: Mamoru Chiba - early college student or old-head pedophile?, as Lady Tuxedo noted, so I will be merging this thread into that one.

Oh, I wrote that regarding the last topic! Okay, well as far as the debate over their sexual relationship, I think it's left as a nuance. I don't think Takeuchi or Naoko or anyone has a definite answer they want to convey to us. I think they hint at it several times just for the sake of keeping things interesting, because they like to keep us guessing and trying to figure it out. They know that if they don't explicitly say anything, it keeps everyone interested and we jump at any hint that they may/may not be having sex.

There are multiple scenes in the Anime/Manga where it hints heavily at them having sex, but then I think about this scene in Sailor Stars episode 168:




Why would she say this unless they haven't had sex? But at the same time, they try to convey multiple times that they have had sex. They just like to keep us guessing.

I think that any sexual relationship that is mentioned is portrayed as a very, very intimate expression of deep eternal love more than anything else. If they have had sex, they want to portray it as an act of love. (I know how extremely cheesy that sounded, but it's true :p)

I interpreted Usagi's words as rather about making their relationship formal rather than sex...

Though "having sex" is really wide term, describing different acts. And it is sure that they frequently meet in his apartament... BTW, in one episode Usagi is embarassed when Minako teases her about Mamoru's aquarium - does somebody has an idea about the meaning of this scene?

Moonlight Lady wrote:

I interpreted Usagi's words as rather about making their relationship formal rather than sex...

Hmm. Could definitely be true.

I think Minako said something along the lines of "oooh so you are in that kind of relationship now?" And Usagi blushed didn't really respond, same with mamoru.

However, I noticed in anime similar to Sailor Moon, seeing that talking publicly about ANY sort of romantic acts (whether its kissing or having sex), girls (and the guys) tend to get really embarrased about it. Its possible that Usagi was just at Mamoru's apartment and they just did some kissing and she was already embarrased enough about that. xD

But i dunno, Usagi may act oblivious about things, but I think Usagi in the stars episode, was hinting at taking further steps than kissing. So its possible up until that point all they ever did was make out a little bit.

In Japan it's even socially okay to date your teachers so just thought I would throw this out there as to why this wouldn't be a big deal.

i can't see him as pedophile because when i was 13, i hooked up with a 23 year old guy. no sex, just make out.

and, i think that age really isn't importante. and that on the inside he's just a kid, like usagi. and that in between make out sessions, they would play games or read comics together, without anyone knowing, so it wouldn't compromise his status as "older-more mature-college guy".

and yes, they did have sex on the manga. and on the anime. AND IT IS HINTED ON PGSM(because she's preggo on the special act - imo).

Wow the largest age difference ever between me and a guy was like 4 years= my husband! That guy would totally have been thrown in jail here in the states kissing or not. How do people in your country feel about age gaps like that? Is it socially acceptable?

it's not really okay. but like, 4 to 6 years of difference it's fine.
but that's nothing. i kissed a 33 year-old-man when i was 17.
and ended up marrying a guy almost two years younger.

anyway, this is about mamoru, not me =P

Maybe we should make a thread about this kind of thing XD

I also don't see great problem in 4-6 year difference. It's not an intergenerational relationship. It may be not common to have such age gap in teen years, but when they are 20, 30 or 40?

When Minako dates Hawkseye and Tigerseye they are adults - and I don't remember it being a problem, though her two-timing is.

Small Lady wrote:

I think Minako said something along the lines of "oooh so you are in that kind of relationship now?" And Usagi blushed didn't really respond, same with mamoru.

However, I noticed in anime similar to Sailor Moon, seeing that talking publicly about ANY sort of romantic acts (whether its kissing or having sex), girls (and the guys) tend to get really embarrased about it. Its possible that Usagi was just at Mamoru's apartment and they just did some kissing and she was already embarrased enough about that. xD

Yes - but I still don't get Minako's jumping from aquarium to "that kind of relationship". Is "aquarium" in Japan some code word?

And we already know at that point (nalf of SuperS season) that Usagi visits Mamoru and that they kiss...

Small Lady wrote:

But i dunno, Usagi may act oblivious about things, but I think Usagi in the stars episode, was hinting at taking further steps than kissing. So its possible up until that point all they ever did was make out a little bit.

Her embarassement when she believed Seiya is hitting on her is also striking.

However, I believe they went some further then just kissing.

Anjyu wrote:

In Japan it's even socially okay to date your teachers so just thought I would throw this out there as to why this wouldn't be a big deal.

Wait what really?

Ok so to explain some of the age difference stuff, at least in my opinion as a history major and a sociology minor, this is just stuff I've picked up from school that I'm applying to SM.

As far as Usagi and Edymion go back in the Silver Millennium, if we assume that it takes place at least a thousand years or really just a long, long time before present day (when the anime and manga take place) Japan, there's a few things you have to realize. Historically, women have always married young.As soon as they have their first periods, they are of child bearing age and basically ready to marry. Women were married off at ages, 13, 14 15, 16 (16 is getting kinda old to be married at this point) while they're husbands would be older. Men were expected to marry at a later age in order to have time to set up their career and have the money and financial resources to support a family. Women were expected to marry young because they were expected to take advantage of their prime child bearing ages. IN a society where people did not live very long, ie 40 was OLD! It was normal. So I'm actually not shocked that there isn't a bigger age difference between the two.


Now to present day Japan. At least in Canada, age of consent if 14. Two people can have sex as long as both parties are under the age of 18. If one party is 18 or older (age of majority) it is considered Statutory Rape and I'm sure the US has similar laws. This may be where people are seeing Mamo-chan as a pedo. We're assuming he's around the age of 18 and I believe that's around the age of majority in Japan, please correct me if I'm wrong!

However, I do believe that Usagi and Mamoru's relationship is very chaste. Hand holding, hugging, and some light kissing. I think Mamoru realizes that Usagi is still young and still needs time to grow and mature and so does he, so he's trying to take things slow. (Although I do imagine the poor guy is taking a lot of cold showers! Poor thing!)

There may be some Japanese cultural elements that I'm missing but I'm just trying to explain as to why some people in Western society would see Mamoru as a pedophile.

I think that once people both past the age of majority there is little problem with age difference. My boyfriend is 4 years older than I am and so far we haven't had any problems, but then again I'm 23 and not underage like Usagi ^.^

Would love to hear thoughts and replies to what I think!

In Stars Usagi says that she will be able to get married when she is sixteen.

I wonder how other students in university in States would react if Mamoru showed them photo of his future wife. He may be lucky to never get there...

Though Usagi did regard Rei's date with Mamoru as inappropriate...

I think maybe she saw Rei's date as inappropriate because she didn't like him at the time xD

Addelyn wrote:

I think maybe she saw Rei's date as inappropriate because she didn't like him at the time xD

She could have also been jealous and didn't realize it. xD

Small Lady wrote:

Addelyn wrote:

I think maybe she saw Rei's date as inappropriate because she didn't like him at the time xD

She could have also been jealous and didn't realize it. xD

Ohh maybe sub-consciously she knew that he was her destined love from way back when

I like to think that even though they fought and picked on each other, it was really just them slowly falling for each other and just showing it in a weird way. If anything, Mamoru may have already had a crush on Usagi but didn't pursue anything just because of being more concerned with the whole Tuxedo Mask business. :3

oh, that he did have a crush on her it's obvious.

i just rewatched with my daughter episode 46 and when usagi throws the test on his head and leaves, you can see his face and it's obvious he's attacted already.

i actually have in my headcanon that he was like a kindergarden boy, always pushing her over the edge just so he would have something to talk with her. even if it's just to make fun.