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 Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)

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Momma Jupi
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PostSubject: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime1st July 2011, 2:09 pm

Hallo,

So this isn't a topic of Seiya's gender but rather your opinions of him as a character (to avoid constantly writing him/her, I am going to just stick to the male pronoun. I hope this does not offend anyone). I've noticed that people seem to either hate or love him. A lot of UsagixMamoru fans dislike his character because of how fans try to pair Usagi and Seiya together. In the anime, Seiya pretty much becomes the star of the show beside Usagi, and as the main male protagonist, the writers portray him in a much better light than they did with their previous male protagonist, Chiba Mamoru.

Personally, I like his character. I also refer to him more of a he than a she because in the anime, that is how Seiya spent the majority of his character. As Sailor Star Fighter, I do not think she stood out very much, other than being one of the Sailor Starlights. The anime mainly focused on Seiya the Male, and his relationship with Usagi. But I think his character was vital to Usagi. The two of them became very dear friends and he supported her quite a bit. I also think that a lot of the times her friends tease her more than they should (an anime trait) and Seiya was one of the nicer individuals towards her. He is also rather humorous at times and I really enjoyed that about him.

The stars season in the manga is quite short and the plot moves very quickly. I do not have very much to say on Seiya in the manga because I do not think an overt amount of time was spent on him/her.

But I was just curious about your opinions. Why does he/she seem to be such a controversial character among fans?

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime2nd July 2011, 10:10 pm

Hallo, Sailor Jupiter! Very Happy

I think that Kou Seiya was extremely controversial because of some known facts.
1. He/She was extremely different from the manga. (like at least 85%)
2. The whole shipper thing...
3. Naoko Takeuchi's annoyance the sex-change thing in the anime.
4. Many fans did not know about Sailor Stars until some years later so he was very new to many.


Personally, I truly like Seiya, as well as the other Starlights. When I first watched Stars I thought they were refreshing and interesting. I also like the fact that they befriended Usagi and her friends fairly quickly.

HOWEVER, there were points where I had myself saying, they are getting on my nerves. It was the same thing over and over again, especially Seiya. "I have to find the princess, but oh wait, I'm falling in love with someone who looks like her." Oh my gosh, OVERDONE.

And then I pretty much HAD IT by the time Seiya said, "Am I not good enough?" to Usagi on the roof. Really? Is that a friend? Is a FRIEND a person who makes you feel guilty because you miss the love of your life? I felt like it went from Seiya being a cool friend who has a crush on Usagi, to it now being someone who is clingy and manipulative.

And personally, I like her character so much more in the manga. She's actually a woman, she is fighting a personal battle with her love for Kakyuu and her love for Usagi, instead of tossing her aside like in the anime, and she is a SUPPORTING CHARACTER like she was meant to be.

So to say that I love Seiya, that would be a no. But to say that I hate him, absolutely not. It's not his fault he was being predictable towards the end.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime2nd July 2011, 10:25 pm

Seiya in the manga is a million times better. She is the one that helps Usagi remember Mamoru's death. If that isn't someone trying to help someone they care about, then I don't know what is. The Starlights do their best to help Usagi when she's all alone. Its very sweet and endearing.

In the anime, I really liked how Seiya and Usagi acted around each other. They had fun and I liked how light hearted some of the episodes were. I hated his attraction to her and how it became this weird love triangle forced drama thing. That Usagi would NEVER EVER look at any other guy in a romantic way.

I did like, however, how Seiya and Starlights really helped Usagi out in the final battle with Galaxia. They did their best. I really wish they hadn't done the sex change thing. It was kind of dumb if you ask me. I can understand it as a disguise with magic and all. But to make Seiya end up being mostly seen as a guy and stuff is just...I dunno. Its like "OH I'M A CHICK BUT I THINK I ONLY HAVE FEELINGS FOR THIS GIRL BECAUSE OF ME BEING A GUY NOW." Um. what.

Why can't he/she have feelings in both forms? At least in the manga, Seiya was a girl the entire time and was like "OH I LIKE HER ROMANTICALLYISH".

I also hate the shippers. Especially the ones that don't accept that Seiya is really a WOMAN. -_-

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 12:55 am

I kind of liked the anime. Mamoru, although not his fault, was killed and couldn't be there for Usagi. Seiya was there for her, and although people think it was selfish and manipulative of Seiya to ask Usagi that, he really did care about her. I mean, think about it. If you truly wanted someone, like loved them, saw them in pain because of someone they missed, wouldn't you honestly ask them if you weren't good enough? I understand why Seiya said that, and it wasn't in the sense to be a jerk, or to try to take advantage of her. She was confused, but imagine how Seiya felt. Seiya was confused, but he wasn't confused about loving her. In the end, Seiya ACTUALLY let her go back to Mamoru, he/she didn't ditch her. I don't remember the quotes exactly, but he said, "I'll never forget you." That has some endearment, not like, OH HEY, THANKS FOR LOLZ, SEE YA.

Now, if they portrayed Mamoru CORRECTLY, like his manga self, Seiya would have been no match. lol

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 2:53 am

I've only read the manga version of Stars, and I like Seiya. I think she's really sweet and a comforting presence for Usagi. After all, the Stars arc is really about Usagi herself, and how she deals with being alone. Seiya doesn't have much of a bigger role than the other Starlights. Really, in the end, the only ones left are Sailor Moon and Sailor Chibi Chibi.

As for Seiya in the anime, I can see where she's coming from in thinking that Mamoru coldly dumped Usagi. But I kind of wonder (and this goes for everyone else as well) why it never occurred to her that Mamoru might be dead? It seemed very strange. In the manga, she and the other Starlights knew that Mamoru was dead. Usagi knew, too, but had suppressed her memory of him dying, and the other sailor senshi didn't know because they hadn't been there when it happened.

I agree with thewhitemoonfamily that it was really selfish (although not unexpected of someone Seiya's age) of her to ask if she wasn't good enough. I can understand people being able to forgive and like Seiya after that. What bothers me is when they say it's super romantic and sweet.

So at least, in the manga, I like Seiya. I haven't seen enough of her in the anime to know whether I like her or not. I probably won't mind her, at least, but I will miss Mamoru.
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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 10:49 am

yes, the timing to ask that was horrible, but to ask that as someone who loves and cares for you? no, not all, so i disagree with you two (rachael and whitemoonfamily). maybe it bothers you that seiya is really female, and kind of mislead usagi? seiya didn't know mamoru died in the anime, but in the manga she did. seiya only made usagi remember, whereas rei and the others just all out criticize and slap her. it's like saying michiru was selfish when she pretty much forced the senshi life on haruka by being attacked by a monster. :/ it is romantic in a sense, but the timing for it was all wrong. then again, what would you do? the girl you love is sobbing her eyes out and saying the name of the man who "supposedly" left her. um, idk about you people but I'd take the chance, especially if the girl was usagi. sure, you'd hurt her by asking that, at that precise moment, but you can't just stand there and not say anything. granted, she could have saved that kind of talk for waaay later, and could have just hugged and comforted the poor girl. but after that scene, we see usagi admitting to haruka and michiru that she loves OTHER people too. now, if that didn't blow up usagi's heart, then i think she was more hurt at seeing seiya mimic tuxedo mask [unknowingly, mind you].

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 1:56 pm

I found a great article...

http://starlight.csmalecki.com/reads/seiya.php

I think many of you would enjoy it!

Anyway, I'm not really crazy about the Starlights in general, because I feel their role was too large in the anime. Usagi, to my knowledge, never once expressed an attraction to Seiya, so the shipping's always been one-sided. Also, Seiya even has his/her own image song about this unrequited love.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 3:35 pm

it wasn't expressed directly, it was always brief moments of intimate staring, and repetitive uses of "ano", and soft pleading, "seiya" 's. it's more prominent in the anime, and it very obvious that usagi has feelings for seiya. but that's in the anime. i can't really remember how it was in the manga, i only remember it was a huge rushed arc.

EDIT: i read that, and that's just that person's opinion, and she only backed her story up once. it's not lying when i or someone else posts proof or quotes. i'm not a shipper of usagi and seiya, but it annoys me when people completely dismiss the OBVIOUS tension. usagi LIKES seiya, and not in a friend-only manner. yes at the end, she says we'll be good friends, BUT MAMORU IS RIGHT THERE. THE SENSHI ARE RIGHT THERE. why the hell would she admit to seiya that she liked/loved him IN FRONT OF MAMORU? she wouldn't. and tbh, she snuffed out her feelings toward the end. or that's just my two cents. there is a picture of where seiya tries to kiss usagi, but she turns her cheek, and CRIES. you don't cry if someone is trying to kiss you, unless it was demando. there are countless episodes of usagi bottling and hiding her emotions from everyone, so this can't be easily dismissed.
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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 3:53 pm

Ai-No-Hana wrote:
yes, the timing to ask that was horrible, but to ask that as someone who loves and cares for you? no, not all, so i disagree with you two (rachael and whitemoonfamily). maybe it bothers you that seiya is really female, and kind of mislead usagi?

No, that doesn't bother me at all.

Quote :
seiya didn't know mamoru died in the anime, but in the manga she did. seiya only made usagi remember, whereas rei and the others just all out criticize and slap her. it's like saying michiru was selfish when she pretty much forced the senshi life on haruka by being attacked by a monster. :/ it is romantic in a sense, but the timing for it was all wrong. then again, what would you do? the girl you love is sobbing her eyes out and saying the name of the man who "supposedly" left her. um, idk about you people but I'd take the chance, especially if the girl was usagi.

That right there is selfish--to "take the chance" when someone's at their most vulnerable. Seiya had, and would have after that, plenty of opportunities to tell Usagi she loved her. I'm not saying Seiya's a bad person. From what I know, she seems like a pretty decent person. She may not even have realized that she was being selfish. But that doesn't make what she did okay.

Quote :
sure, you'd hurt her by asking that, at that precise moment, but you can't just stand there and not say anything.

Why does she have to say something that hurts her? There are many different things she could have said. "I'm sorry," "Is there anything I can do?", "Would you like me to walk you home?" Or just offered her a shoulder to cry on. "Am I not good enough?" is, I think, one of the worst possible things she could have said. It smacks of guilt-tripping. Again, it's what a lot of people would say before they've matured enough, and I don't think Seiya's a horrible person for saying it. It was just a selfish thing to say.

Quote :
granted, she could have saved that kind of talk for waaay later, and could have just hugged and comforted the poor girl. but after that scene, we see usagi admitting to haruka and michiru that she loves OTHER people too. now, if that didn't blow up usagi's heart, then i think she was more hurt at seeing seiya mimic tuxedo mask [unknowingly, mind you].

I'd have to see the scene in particular, but Usagi does love everybody--just not in the same way that she loves Mamoru. And I'm not really sure what that has to do with what Seiya said.
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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime3rd July 2011, 4:19 pm

Yeah I pretty much agree with Rachael. I have no problem with Seiya being female, her feelings for Usagi, or anything else in particular. But like I said before, and I'll say again, to express to someone at their most vulnerable and ask if their good enough for you, rather than your boyfriend, is not cute, and even traumatizing.

I'm not saying that Usagi never had feelings for Seiya. I mean she's had feelings for a LOT of people, like Haruka, Seiya and Ail (from the R Doom Tree Series) just to name some. But the only difference with Seiya is that with Stars, it LINGERED ON AND ON. With Haruka and Ail, she dismisses those fairly quickly. I feel as though she kind of felt the same way about Seiya and she could have move on, but Mamoru wasn't there. So it was basically about who is there to be friends at the time and not about love necessarily. Even that time when Seiya grabs her in the club, she recognizes that it is FAMILIAR to how Mamoru would protect her, not "oh this is so much better than when I was with Mamoru."

Like I said, Seiya is much better in the manga: Female, supporting character with Taiki and Yaten, and is not overly pressed on Usagi.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime4th July 2011, 1:46 am

the manga version was much better. then again, that's usually how it is. lol. seiya was a very, persistent character in the anime which was so different than how she was in the manga. it's a very psychological scene, and people easily dismiss it as romantic, or stupid, or selfish. it's none of the above.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime18th July 2011, 8:38 am

Honestly, I loved Seiya! And I loved SeiyaxUsagi (but I wouldn't change Usagi and Mamoru's relationship one bit)
I loved that one scene, where he said something along the lines of (I can't remember exactly) "Am I not enough for you?" I thought it was very sweet. Also when he jumped infront of Sailor Tin Nyanko's kitty gun (I have no idea if it had an actual name, haha), I thought that was beautiful. He was the only one of the starlights I actually liked, and I liked him a lot. I ship them sometimes Razz He's actually one of my favourite characters, and for some reason I like the fact that he's both a man and a woman.
I've not read the manga yet, so I have no opinion on the gender change really. It made sense to me (that he was both), don't know why.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime8th August 2011, 2:35 am

@Rachael wrote:
Quote :
sure, you'd hurt her by asking that, at that precise moment, but you can't just stand there and not say anything.

Why does she have to say something that hurts her? There are many different things she could have said. "I'm sorry," "Is there anything I can do?", "Would you like me to walk you home?" Or just offered her a shoulder to cry on. "Am I not good enough?" is, I think, one of the worst possible things she could have said. It smacks of guilt-tripping. Again, it's what a lot of people would say before they've matured enough, and I don't think Seiya's a horrible person for saying it. It was just a selfish thing to say.

Of course he could have said something like this, but maybe he wasn't that strong. I mean - he really got feelings for Usagi, and just as Sailor Venus already said, it seems like Mamoru just went to the USA and dumped Usagi. For Seiya that's kinda obvious - it would be obvious for every outsider, I think.
So maybe he didn't get it that Usagi was still crying over someone like a boy/man who just dumped her. I'm sure it hurt him when he saw Usagi crying like that, and maybe he got even a little bit angry at Mamoru. He often tried to get closer to Usagi, but she wouldn't let him. And maybe (how often am I going to say 'maybe'?) he got desperate then because Usagi didn't answer his feelings, and that's why he asked her that question. I think he didn't want her to be sad anymore and gave it another try to make her love him or something.

I'm not saying it was very clever what he said, but I understand him. When you're in an one-sided-love you'll get to a point where you can't just be a friend anymore, because it hurts too much. So I couldn't have said something like "Is there anything I can do?", because I'd be too .. depressed, I dunno.

Oh boy, even in German I'm bad at explaining things >_> I hope that was understandable XD


EDIT;
I just remembered - in the German dub he said: "Maybe I could help you. At least I'll try to."
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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime8th August 2011, 1:14 pm

I'm ambivalent toward the anime portrayal of Seiya; I most certainly agree with Takeuchi's dismay over the unnecessary gender bending which really didn't make a lick of sense. Focusing on Seiya's character, however, I felt as if he was inserted into a specific role by the anime writers because Mamoru is killed. To maintain emotional tension---as if Usagi's growing dismay over Mamoru's lack of response was not enough---Seiya was introduced as an attempt to recapture the dynamic Mamoru and Usagi had during the first season. Their relationship progresses from teasing to a heightened state of emotional interplay. To me, it's the writers wanting to have their cake and eat it too: a potential romantic angle involving a new character who also happens to be one of the Starlights. There is a sense that they're trying to force the romantic relationship dynamic, and I think that is rather unfortunate.

It was rather clear that Usagi only had eyes for Mamoru; the anime really muddied the waters.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime8th August 2011, 1:39 pm

@Thereisnospoon303 wrote:
I'm ambivalent toward the anime portrayal of Seiya; I most certainly agree with Takeuchi's dismay over the unnecessary gender bending which really didn't make a lick of sense. Focusing on Seiya's character, however, I felt as if he was inserted into a specific role by the anime writers because Mamoru is killed. To maintain emotional tension---as if Usagi's growing dismay over Mamoru's lack of response was not enough---Seiya was introduced as an attempt to recapture the dynamic Mamoru and Usagi had during the first season. Their relationship progresses from teasing to a heightened state of emotional interplay. To me, it's the writers wanting to have their cake and eat it too: a potential romantic angle involving a new character who also happens to be one of the Starlights. There is a sense that they're trying to force the romantic relationship dynamic, and I think that is rather unfortunate.

It was rather clear that Usagi only had eyes for Mamoru; the anime really muddied the waters.

^THIS

I don't think I could have explained then you did, Thereisnospoon303. That is how I felt all through Stars.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime12th August 2011, 3:18 pm

It would have been A LOT clearer without the gender bending. I think since Mamoru was dropped in Stars [he was killed pretty early] they needed some kind of romance to keep fans interested [since you know, nowadays people watch things for romance]. But seriously, did they have to warp Seiya so much? In the manga, I think she just admired Usagi rather than loved her. I personally hated the whole destined to be together forever even if we're reborn as whales, particles, and even watermelon~ It was sickening, so yes, they did mess up the animeStars arc A LOT with Seiya, but I still liked it nonetheless.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime12th August 2011, 5:35 pm

I actually really liked Stars... Es[ecially the SeiyaxUsagi dynamic. It was the first time that I got thinking, what if Usagi decided to take a step away from her "destiny"?

I watched the entire anime before I read the manga, so I'm a bit more biased towards the anime's portrayal of Seiya... I think he just added a lot of spice that Mamoru couldn't ever have.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime12th August 2011, 7:03 pm

@SailorBAMF wrote:
I actually really liked Stars... Es[ecially the SeiyaxUsagi dynamic. It was the first time that I got thinking, what if Usagi decided to take a step away from her "destiny"?

I watched the entire anime before I read the manga, so I'm a bit more biased towards the anime's portrayal of Seiya... I think he just added a lot of spice that Mamoru couldn't ever have.


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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime15th August 2011, 12:49 am

@thewhitemoonfamily wrote:
Yeah I pretty much agree with Rachael. I have no problem with Seiya being female, her feelings for Usagi, or anything else in particular. But like I said before, and I'll say again, to express to someone at their most vulnerable and ask if their good enough for you, rather than your boyfriend, is not cute, and even traumatizing.

I'm not saying that Usagi never had feelings for Seiya. I mean she's had feelings for a LOT of people, like Haruka, Seiya and Ail (from the R Doom Tree Series) just to name some. But the only difference with Seiya is that with Stars, it LINGERED ON AND ON. With Haruka and Ail, she dismisses those fairly quickly. I feel as though she kind of felt the same way about Seiya and she could have move on, but Mamoru wasn't there. So it was basically about who is there to be friends at the time and not about love necessarily. Even that time when Seiya grabs her in the club, she recognizes that it is FAMILIAR to how Mamoru would protect her, not "oh this is so much better than when I was with Mamoru."

Like I said, Seiya is much better in the manga: Female, supporting character with Taiki and Yaten, and is not overly pressed on Usagi.

being attracted to someone is not the same as being IN LOVE, the same about loving.
Usagi has a big heart and loves everyone, and even in the manga where her attraction to Haruka was going on all the time, it didn`t mean she was in love with her and didn`t love Mamoru the same. Same about Haruka. She loves Michiru, but was attracted to Usagi.
Also, she didn`t have feeling for Ail, it was friendship and her caring for other people..

I watched very little from the anime, but in the manga I don`t care for Seiya, she was just there. But I don`t really like the starlights overall.
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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime16th August 2011, 5:05 pm

I understand people's dislike over Seiya confessing his feelings toward Usagi during a time when she was at her most vulnerable and really, completely broken. But I cannot fault Seiya at all. I believe (in the anime) he truly loved her. There is nothing more painful than to watch the person you love be completely torn apart by a person who seems to have completely cast them aside.

In Seiya's defense, he never got to see the love between Usagi and Mamoru. To him, Mamoru is simply a boyfriend and Usagi is Seiya's best friend (I do believe they had one of the best friendships in the anime) and not only that, he loves her. Seiya also was not aware of how much Mamoru loved Usagi, nor their past history, nor their bond as Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Kamen. There is a lot between Usagi and Mamoru that Seiya never knew about. I do not believe, even if he was still in pain over Usagi's torment, that he would have confessed to her had he known how much Mamoru loved her.

That aside, I will say again that I do empathize with Seiya's confession. I know people think it selfish but really, I can understand. When you see some one you care about in such anguish over a person who seems to not care at all, it is almost primal to want to take that pain away. Both Usagi and Seiya were at their breaking point on that roof.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime16th August 2011, 5:53 pm

@Sailor Jupiter wrote:
I understand people's dislike over Seiya confessing his feelings toward Usagi during a time when she was at her most vulnerable and really, completely broken. But I cannot fault Seiya at all. I believe (in the anime) he truly loved her. There is nothing more painful than to watch the person you love be completely torn apart by a person who seems to have completely cast them aside.

In Seiya's defense, he never got to see the love between Usagi and Mamoru. To him, Mamoru is simply a boyfriend and Usagi is Seiya's best friend (I do believe they had one of the best friendships in the anime) and not only that, he loves her. Seiya also was not aware of how much Mamoru loved Usagi, nor their past history, nor their bond as Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Kamen. There is a lot between Usagi and Mamoru that Seiya never knew about. I do not believe, even if he was still in pain over Usagi's torment, that he would have confessed to her had he known how much Mamoru loved her.

That aside, I will say again that I do empathize with Seiya's confession. I know people think it selfish but really, I can understand. When you see some one you care about in such anguish over a person who seems to not care at all, it is almost primal to want to take that pain away. Both Usagi and Seiya were at their breaking point on that roof.

FINALLY, SOMEONE WHO ISN'T JUST BLATANTLY BASHING SEIYA'S CONFESSION. OMFG. I thought this day would never come. I mean really people, I guess you haven't been in love before, because you'd have to be to understand that it wasn't selfish. Honestly people. UNDERSTAND before you BASH.

I love you, Becca! <3

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime16th August 2011, 8:16 pm

@Sailor Venus wrote:
FINALLY, SOMEONE WHO ISN'T JUST BLATANTLY BASHING SEIYA'S CONFESSION. OMFG. I thought this day would never come. I mean really people, I guess you haven't been in love before, because you'd have to be to understand that it wasn't selfish. Honestly people. UNDERSTAND before you BASH.

I love you, Becca! <3

Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) 3655530388 Aw, gee. Thank ya, love. I'm glad that you agree too.

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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime1st September 2011, 12:02 pm

I agree with Rebecca. I don't blame Seiya for confessing his feelings at that moment. He knows nothing about their love at that point and we can't forget he thinks Mamoru is some cold jerk who used her and left her. I beleive Seiya loved Usagi and truly wanted to help her and end her pain. I wouldn't say it's "the most romantic moment of Sailor Moon" like some people say, but I like that scene a lot.
I actually like Seiya. I think he's a great friend and a great guy in general. Yes, he was being a bit judgemental about someone he had never met but if you look at his side of the story, you can't really blame him for assuming that about Mamoru.
I don't mind when people like Seiya x Usagi but I can't stand when people take scenes or lines out of context to say Mamoru is with Usagi just because she's Serenity and he wants to be king or Usagi only stayed with Mamoru because of Chibiusa or the other senshi are heartless because they kept Usagi away from Seiya and Seiya x Usagi is not an unrequited love but a forbidden romance.
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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime1st September 2011, 1:12 pm

@Nina wrote:
I agree with Rebecca. I don't blame Seiya for confessing his feelings at that moment. He knows nothing about their love at that point and we can't forget he thinks Mamoru is some cold jerk who used her and left her. I beleive Seiya loved Usagi and truly wanted to help her and end her pain. I wouldn't say it's "the most romantic moment of Sailor Moon" like some people say, but I like that scene a lot.
I actually like Seiya. I think he's a great friend and a great guy in general. Yes, he was being a bit judgemental about someone he had never met but if you look at his side of the story, you can't really blame him for assuming that about Mamoru.

I agree with you as well! Personally, I love Seiya as a character. He amuses me very much. I like that he thinks that he is so wonderful because he is adored by fans but he isn't entirely full of himself. His amusement at Usagi's lack of adoration towards him is adorable and they are very cute together. I think he is a wonderful "best friend" and they play off of one hilariously so. Seiya never acts like Usagi is stupid, although she is a bit flighty, but that is alright. In the Stars, I think the writers portrayed Usagi's personality the best -- somewhat ditzy but not a complete airhead like she was made out to be in previous seasons -- and Seiya likes those aspects of Usagi, he does not try to change her.

I also agree with you - I do not think that scene is the "most romantic moment of Sailor Moon.' I think it is one of the more heart wrenching scenes, but I would not call that romantic. The two of them are not all 'blindly in love' with one another, or anything of that kind, they are broken and lost and desperately clinging on to some form of comfort.


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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime9th October 2011, 3:29 pm

Seiya suffers from what I call an "in-authenticity" problem. I'll explain

Seiya the Clone Character:

I'm sure we all know that Seiya is a clone of Haruka/Sailor Uranus and Mamoru.
She is strong, intense, self confident and feminine like Uranus, and sweet,
handsome and protective like Mamoru. The problem comes from (anime) Seiya
essentially filling in the roles of established characters. While (manga) Seiya
exposure is limited and the reader can gleam just enough to acknowledge that
Seiya is similar to Haruka and Mamoru. (Anime) Seiya is a frequent and
recurring character, constantly interacting with Usagi. Sailor Stars the manga
and anime feature Uranus as a recurring character much like she was in Sailor
Moon S. With Mamoru killed in the first chapters and episodes of the arc, Seiya
is inserted to fill the role left vacant by him and co-sign on Uranus'
territory. Seiya is unable to escape being a redundant character.


Seiya the Mary Sue Character:

Mary Sues are wish fulfillment characters that are given special attention by
the writers in an attempt to get the fans to like them. This generally doesn't
work because the character is essentially flawless and has no negatives about
them. With (manga) Seiya having a very small and brief role you don't see this,
but (anime) Seiya is elevated to a pivotal role in the Sailor Stars arc.
Including the similarities (anime) Seiya has with Mamoru and Haruka, the
writers and direcors at Toei took special care to frame Seiya in the most
positive light. (Anime) Seiya is strong, caring and protective like Mamoru, but
she/he is also a Sailor Senshi.

With Sailor Moon being 95% about girls/women; (anime) Seiya
incidentally has a liberty that Mamoru does not. Mamoru/Endymion has great
power and abilities that we don't see often. He comes to Usagi's rescue but he doesn't defeat many villains compared to the senshi. This is done
to avoid the stipulation of whenever Usagi (a woman) is in serious trouble, Mamoru (a man) will show unleash his gold crystal powers and blow the enemy away. The gender bending allows Seiya to fill both the roles of civilian lover and protector and front line combatant against the forces of evil with the rest of the girl’s only club. Mamoru figuratively speaking is the odd one out due to his gender.

The gender bending dynamic of the anime allows Seiya not only have
a (heterosexual) relationship with Usagi but also a common bond as they are
both senshi. Since Usagi being bi-sexual or gay would cause turbulent reactions
to the show like Uranus and Neptune's relationship and that Toei felt Usagi
NEEDED a romantic interest. (Anime) Seiya conveniently becomes Usgai's best
friend, is featured in every episode and always to come to Usagi's rescue; very
much like Tuxedo Kamen did in the early anime and manga. It's really the same
old things we've seen with a different name and face on them.

Mamoru and Haruka get a pass because they have long been
identified with these roles, but for Seiya to come along and do the exact same thing is unimaginative and in-authentic. Way too much effort was put into making (anime) Seiya a match for Usagi. While her manga counterpart is heroic, mysterious and flawed (scene where Seiya uses his powers which leads to one of Galaxia's senshi targeting her and Usagi. The battle exposes the StarLights to the Inner and Outer Senshi and results in the deaths of Mercury and Jupiter). Manga Seiya helps Usagi see the truth about what happened to her love and her friends and even vows to fight by her side and protect her. (Manga) Seiya doesn't do much fighting and is essentially used as cannon fodder to one of Sailor Galaxia's senshi.


Seiya really loves Princess Kakyu:

This aspect is almost completely glossed over in the anime but in the manga
it's highly implied that Seiya is in love with Princess Kakyu. In both the
anime and manga Seiya comments that Usagi reminds her alot of Kakyu. She states that they both act the same, they look the same, and even smell the same (due to Usagi having an incense burner in her room that Kakyu is hiding in.) In her search for Kakyu Seiya repeatedly states how much Usagi reminds her of Kakyu. The same way that Usagi states that Seiya reminds her of Mamoru. It is that similarity to the Kakyu which draws Seiya to Usagi. However the manga also
seems to imply that Kakyu doesn't return Seiya's feelings but Seiya keeps
loving her.

Seiya and Usagi's "relationship" in the manga is too
brief to really elaborate on but their attraction to each other can be
explained in the context of the situation at hand. Seiya is in a desperate
search to save her Princess and love interest from the evil Sailor Galaxia, and
has not had in success in the weeks or months she's spent looking. Then she
meets Usagi who reminds her so much of Kakyu. Usagi has seen several of her
friends and her fiancee killed before her eyes. She's alone, freighted and
scared. She meets Seiya in this crisis and is attracted to her because in her
boy disguise she looks, sounds like Mamoru. Both Usagi and Seiya are attracted
each other because each of a sense of familiarity they have for the people they
love respectfully and they are desperately lonely without them.


For the fans that read both the manga and watched the anime
this points out a very stark observation. Seiya loves Kakyu, but the love is unrequited. Seiya falls for Usgai in the anime but did he truly love her or was it more of a rebound to a person who by her own admission is similar to Kayku the woman she loves? Also take into account that Usagi is in a very vulnerable position in the anime due to not hearing from her fiancee. Was (anime) Seiya thinking he/she could win Usagi by seizing this opportunity with a woman who has the qualities of another woman she desired? I can't have Princess Kakyu but Usagi is a close substitute. In-authentic much?

Many SM fans dismiss the whole Seiya and Usagi relationship for the first two
reasons i explained above. Most don't know about the Seiya X Kakyu dynamic, but I'm sure if they did more would question Seiya's commitment to Usagi in the
anime like I do. I chock the entire Sailor Stars Anime in being an in-authentic
adaptaion of the manga. Aside from the usual manga to anime changes, the animecompletely forsakes the entire theme of the Sailor Stars the manga. Which is Usagi being alone and discovering she has the power to save everything and lose everything.
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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime8th November 2011, 1:15 am

I can see both sides of this argument and all the points are valid. Really valid. The only thing that saved Seiya from being disliked by me is the fact that in the end he did understand that his love for Usagi was unrequited and dealt with it and reassured Usagi. He even told Mamoru to take care of her. Doing that made him more of an admirable and honourable character.
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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime13th December 2018, 1:05 pm

Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) 3827717276 
Well, I think Seiya is a pretty likable character, even if the Starlights seem to be like jerks sometimes. I really like the relationship in the Stars anime with Usagi; it was probably a major part of why I liked that season so much. It's an unrequited somewhat relationship, but nevertheless really touching, especially the "forbidden", cliched as it seems, aspect (the other two Lights were pretty heartless, weren't they?). Their relationship felt more moving; after the first two seasons of the anime or so Mamoru kind of seems optional, unlike in the manga, so I guess there's that also. Then again, maybe, the two could have just been substituting their respective loves onto each other (Kakyuu and Mamoru), but even then there's something poignant about it, as though there is no assurance of a "Miracle Romance", that makes it feel much more alive Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) 2869872805 ?
Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers)   Kou Seiya (may have possible spoilers) I_icon_minitime13th December 2018, 2:06 pm

Ooo, this is an interesting thread you've dug up!

For me, I definitely prefer manga Seiya to anime. The unrequited feelings feel even more like a projection of wanting to find the princess, and trying to help Usagi remember Mamoru's death and just. It's all very painful in a good way. (The musicals draw more off of these feelings as well, and I love Seiya Usagi interactions in myu)

In the anime, I go back and forth. I don't like the shoe-in to fill Mamoru's place, especially since they pretty much ignore the fact that Seiya is a girl. The "am I not good enough?" scene is wonderful from a heartbreaking standpoint, and understandable in some ways, but also like. It just makes me mad. Nina made a good point that Seiya doesn't know Mamoru and Usagi's relationship, all he sees is the girl he loves in pain because of some guy who seemingly doesn't care enough to contact her. But like, seriously. If someone is sitting there, on the verge of crying, that's when you should put your own feelings aside and help instead of adding on to her problems. I understand that characters aren't perfect, but the lack of consideration Seiya has in a lot of cases is what makes me dislike the "relationship" they set up between him and Usagi in the anime.

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