While I can't exactly condone Mamoru, at least we knew Usagi liked him already. But there's really just a bunch of stolen kisses throughout the series.

StarlightSlayer wrote:

While I can't exactly condone Mamoru, at least we knew Usagi liked him already. But there's really just a bunch of stolen kisses throughout the series.

Too right.

However, some might justify Haruka's kiss on the basis of Usagi having demonstrated an interest in "male" Haruka, though I don't quite think that it was ever intended to be understood as a crush on the part of Usagi, at least not that I noticed. 

I mean had it been the Mamoru and Usagi needed some space from one another, and Usagi shown an interest in "male" Mugen Academy Haruka, that might have made more sense had it been done in their civilian forms. At least in that case Usagi would have thought she was pursuing a boy. Not that it would condone Haruka concealing it from her, just that it would make more sense. However, I think the kiss is supposed to be read in keeping with Usagi's confrontation of Haruka in the arcade, and Haruka's speech at the dojo about it making no difference whether male or female. I think Haruka took the former as Usagi expressing interest in her, and took it as an "okay" to do what she did.

I will admit that I was a bit taken aback by ChibiUsa blushing over Hotaru, and the exchange in the command center regarding Hotaru's beauty. I didn't quite know what to think of it to be honest. I've always taken their friendship to a chaste friendship between girls, but having seen the manga put to animation yesterday, it gave me pause. ChibiUsa is about 902 years old, she's not quite the age she appears. I mean sure, she has a crush on her father (that's resolved later on in the series), but yesterday's exchange seriously had me questioning the nature of her friendship with Hotaru.

Look at you with the sense and facts. I totally agree with on all points, especially with Harkua and Hotaru. I think they try to keep it relatively neutral, but there are definitely some crush aspects to that friendship.

I'm not saying that Haruka was out of line (or Mamoru for kissing her while she was sleeping or Black Lady for kissing Mamoru) but I'm still glad that they put the scene in there. 

Haruka loves her Princess and I think for her, its just a way to show that she loves her imo.

Don't mistake Chibiusa's blushing for anything more than just admiration of Hotaru. Usagi did the same thing when she first met Rei and felt she was incredibly beautiful. She blushed in awe and admiration of her. I think its a cultural thing. To us blushing instantly means romantic interest when i don't think thats always the case in japanese media in displaying friends and interactions. I definitely don't view it as romantic at all. Maybe you can argue their relationship being more romantic on other scenes later in the arc (mostly the one at the end where they state they felt they were destined to meet, etc ) but i think its more little girls being best friends. Chibiusa might be 902 years old but naoko seemed to have written her as still basically being a little kid and not really having the mentality of an adult like you would think a 902 year old in a childs body should have...(its one of things i don't like about the manga because its not thought out the affects of being 902 years old but in a childs body. chibiusa should not still be acting like a little 5 year old ya know? XD)

As far ashte Haruka kiss...i kinda never viewed it as a romantic kiss (yeah its definitely not right for her to steal it from Usagi like that but ignoring that) i think its just more a way for her to express her admiration for her princess. IIRC, in the manga, the outers immediately know that Sailor Moon is their princess and I reckon at that scene Uranus already knows that moon is the princess (and also that Usagi is Moon) and thus she was just trying her best to express her feelings?

I still find it to be really odd and kind of a pointless gesture though. xD I get conflicted over that scene cause i like the drama and what not but at the same time it just kind of falls flat and we don't get much reasoning behind it other than it seems put there for purely shock value.

Man, Small Lady, I think I'm gonna agree with you on everything. Crystal seems to be trying to play the romance outlet, when otherwise the feelings are just awe and friendship. I think it's also worth noting that Chibiusa was bad at making friends in Crystal Tokyo, so maybe it's just a little friend crush? Like, "wow, this girl is really pretty and super cool I totes wanna be bffs with her".

It still doesn't justify Haruka's kiss of Usagi.

Honestly, as much as I like the Outers and the Infinity arc, Naoko botched the backstories for them. We don't get enough about their memories of Silver Millenium to merit whether, or not there would be such an intense admiration of Haruka for Princess Serenity.  We get a similar tension towards the end in relation to Star Fighter and her princess.

I honestly think that this particular storyline was one that never got fleshed out. Namely that of Usagi questioning her sexuality, and by extension her destiny. Note that Mamoru doesn't play as much of a pronounced role during this arc, so it's entirely plausible that it may have been the case. It's not really a storyline I would have wanted to see play out, but the potential was there.However,that would have introduced a number of other continuity errors in relation to ChibiUsa.

That said, this still doesn't explain Michiru's flirting with Mamoru. Was that supposed to be an expression of her admiration for the prince of the Earth? I doubt she had a crush on him during Silver Millenium (only Pluto did), so what gives?

As to Hotaru and ChibiUsa's relationship, I don't quite know. Sure they're really close, but after seeing Crystal it's made me question whether the premise was the lack of need for men, and the romances that take root amongst the girls was implied.

east02west wrote:

Honestly, as much as I like the Outers and the Infinity arc, Naoko botched the backstories for them. We don't get enough about their memories of Silver Millenium to merit whether, or not there would be such an intense admiration of Haruka for Princess Serenity.  We get a similar tension towards the end in relation to Star Fighter and her princess.

I feel the same way. The Outers seemed so loyal to Serenity, but we never get a good reason for their devotion besides "destiny" or something vague. I find it hard to believe that the Outers would gladly exile themselves to the outer reaches of the solar system in the name of protecting their princess without having never met said princess before. I've seen fanfics and doujinshis tackle this before, but I always felt it was rather disappointing that Naoko herself never addressed this backstory in the manga itself.

mangaka-chan wrote:

east02west wrote:

Honestly, as much as I like the Outers and the Infinity arc, Naoko botched the backstories for them. We don't get enough about their memories of Silver Millenium to merit whether, or not there would be such an intense admiration of Haruka for Princess Serenity.  We get a similar tension towards the end in relation to Star Fighter and her princess.

I feel the same way. The Outers seemed so loyal to Serenity, but we never get a good reason for their devotion besides "destiny" or something vague. I find it hard to believe that the Outers would gladly exile themselves to the outer reaches of the solar system in the name of protecting their princess without having never met said princess before. I've seen fanfics and doujinshis tackle this before, but I always felt it was rather disappointing that Naoko herself never addressed this backstory in the manga itself.

What theories have people come up with to explain their back story?

I'm still confused by the Haruka and Michiru love angle. 

I get that they're not meant to lead identical lives to those they lived out during the Silver Millennium, but I still find it strange that once they re-acquired their memories that it wouldn't have informed their relationship as non-lovers. That's why I'm wondering if the unspoken subtext for the story (with the exception of Usagi and Setsuna) is that they are all paired off as senshi with one another. 

I mean it doesn't quite make sense, does it?

The Outer Senshi in Crystal Tokyo resume their old posts. We already see that Pluto cannot leave the gate of time, Saturn only ever awakens if and when necessary (which confuses me now. Are Chibiusa and Hotaru friends in the original timeline?), and Uranus and Neptune remain apart on their respective planet's castles. The Inners remain Usagi's personal guard, with the Shitennou assuming the role of Mamoru's council in the future. Does ChibiUsa know of the existence of the Outers in Crystal Tokyo?

east02west wrote:

I'm still confused by the Haruka and Michiru love angle. 

I get that they're not meant to lead identical lives to those they lived out during the Silver Millennium, but I still find it strange that once they re-acquired their memories that it wouldn't have informed their relationship as non-lovers.

So because they were not in love in their past lives, they can't fall in love now? I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking. Haruka and Michiru are different from SilMil Uranus and Neptune.

Quote :

The Outer Senshi in Crystal Tokyo resume their old posts. We already see that Pluto cannot leave the gate of time, Saturn only ever awakens if and when necessary (which confuses me now. Are Chibiusa and Hotaru friends in the original timeline?), and Uranus and Neptune remain apart on their respective planet's castles. The Inners remain Usagi's personal guard, with the Shitennou assuming the role of Mamoru's council in the future.

Where are you getting all these? Aside from Pluto, these are speculation at best.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I never understood the point of the brief glimpses of Haruka/Usagi and Michiru/Mamoru in here either. It seems done just because. Both Haruka and SilMil Uranus barely knows Usagi/Serenity. They never even met in their past lives (hence why Usagi and the inners don't know the outers even exist).

To me, the kiss feels more like asserting dominance than a gentle gesture of admiration.

Sailor Mercury wrote:

east02west wrote:

I'm still confused by the Haruka and Michiru love angle. 

I get that they're not meant to lead identical lives to those they lived out during the Silver Millennium, but I still find it strange that once they re-acquired their memories that it wouldn't have informed their relationship as non-lovers.

So because they were not in love in their past lives, they can't fall in love now? I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking. Haruka and Michiru are different from SilMil Uranus and Neptune.

Quote :

The Outer Senshi in Crystal Tokyo resume their old posts. We already see that Pluto cannot leave the gate of time, Saturn only ever awakens if and when necessary (which confuses me now. Are Chibiusa and Hotaru friends in the original timeline?), and Uranus and Neptune remain apart on their respective planet's castles. The Inners remain Usagi's personal guard, with the Shitennou assuming the role of Mamoru's council in the future.

Where are you getting all these? Aside from Pluto, these are speculation at best.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I never understood the point of the brief glimpses of Haruka/Usagi and Michiru/Mamoru in here either. It seems done just because. Both Haruka and SilMil Uranus barely knows Usagi/Serenity. They never even met in their past lives (hence why Usagi and the inners don't know the outers even exist).

To me, the kiss feels more like asserting dominance than a gentle gesture of admiration.

Because we never quite get a backstory for the Outers during Silver Millenium. There are a lot of unanswered questions here regarding their respective relationships to one another. Likewise, we don't even have a backstory for how the Outers awakened with the exception of the brief backstory from the 90s anime. Were they awoken before the Inners, or were they awoken shortly after? Who was responsible for their awakening? To throw another curveball we have the problem of Setsuna's re-introduction within the Infinity Arc. She was sent to the past by Neo-Queen Serenity which gives the impression that she may have been the one to awaken the Outers, but then we have the dilemma of Pharaoh 90 being there from Hotaru's youth. Is it possible then that Neptune and Uranus acted like Minako did during her Sailor V days? Was their attraction to one another what lead them to be awakened as senshi? If so, was it similar to the attraction that Mamoru and Usagi felt when they first saw one another, and not understanding it lead them to be a couple as opposed to partner soldiers? After all, they did misunderstand their relationship to Sailor Saturn and what they were supposed to do.

It is indeed speculation, but considering how we're not provided with a flashback by Setsuna (which would be nice of Crystal to actually do) explaining why we didn't see the Outers within Crystal Tokyo, I believe that it is safe to assume that they did indeed resume their previous Outer posts. After all, we never saw Wisman having an effect on them when we see the rest of the dormant senshi within the palace (Neither did we see their Super forms, but that's another story...). 

One would assume that at most Neo-Queen Serenity was acquainted with them, given that the Cosmic Heart Compact has their gems encrusted upon it, as does ChibiUsa's Prism compact. However, that doesn't quite explain why ChibiUsa isn't acquainted with them. After all, ChibiUsa returned from the future with her own compact.

RE: ChibiUsa and Hotaru's friendship:

See Episode 30.

Haruka and Michiru's love for one another can be a new thing from this present day. It does not need to be influenced by their past lives. That's what I'm trying to say. They can be independent people from their past lives.

Anyway, we are getting off topic from the episode now, and I'm sure there have been other threads that discuss this.

Also please don't include spoilers of future episodes in this thread as some people may not have seen them yet.

I'll edit my response to reflect that.

Mod Note 


Just a reminder to please remain on topic. While I love all the discussion going on, if you find yourself starting to talk about theories and past lives vs. current lives, you should find an appropriate thread in Theories, Debates, and Headcannons or General SM Discussion. If there aren't relevant threads, feel free to make one ^.^