Verdandi wrote:

Like the glass shoes episode, I think Mamoru was really cute running out and trying to find these shoes that Usagi only mentioned, after only just having found out about her birthday. He really went out on a limb trying to make it up to her (even when it wasn't his fault.))

What really sticks out for me, it's actually that he acted so after he was hit publicly.

Everybody always talk how Mamoru is embarrassed by Usagi's bahaviour - but here he pays absolutely no attention to the crowd enjoying the spectacle. And then - he thinks only about why she got annoyed, tries to find her and he talks with his ex about what he did to upset Usagu. Sorry, but it's definitively in "no greater love hath man" category.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

Some of it I felt is a little forced, like the whole thing with Usagi. She was going around, kind of trying to avoid Mamoru because he was a mean jerk to her. But she adores Tuxedo Mask, obviously because he's sexy/dreamy/mysterious, etc. Then she finds out that mean jerk is Tuxedo Mask. No one in their right mind sets aside thinking "oh the mean jerk is actually dream and I'm gonna like him now.". That doesn't happen. Most people would be like (as I mentioned in the other thread) "You, the mean jerk, are this sexy mystery man? Are you serious? What the hell? Are you kidding me?" and then usually their feelings or infatuation fades. You don't just dismiss how they've treated you, regardless of their persona.

Just like you don't dismiss all that just because of the past.

Usagi's feelings didn't fade, because she already had feelings for them both. She already didn't try to avoid Mamoru, in both 28th and 34th she runs to him when she sees him - for more mean jerk, please.

Here's my question; why are you debating me when I agree with you in the first place that he does love her...? I have some thoughts about other areas in their relationship sure, but my main stance is I do believe that he loves her.

Verdandi wrote:

I agree with MiMakoChan, in that, I really don't think you can ever compare Dimande to Mamoru. Like, EVER. That man was crazy and sadistic, and he never displays affection. He shows just how much of a freakin' creep he is, and forces Usagi to kiss him against her will.

Yeah. That's a lovingly affectionate gesture.... Riiiiight.

Sorry, but I HATE Dimande (in a series where I generally love *everyone*), and I cannot stand it when people think that Dimande was "sweet" and "misguided", and "awww he really loves her, it's so cute."

NO. No it is not, and you are deluded if you think so. It is NEVER okay for Dimande to do what he did, or to act how he acted, and I think girls who think it is should go seek help.

To even compare silly and quiet "I-throw-myself-in-front-of-pointy-objects-to-save-her" Mamoru to insane and creepy rapist Dimande... It just blows my mind.

Mamoru may have his flaws in the anime, but he LOVES Usagi for who she is (destiny or not, if you watch the first half the first season, you can see their growing affection for one another before destiny ever plays a part), and Dimande DESIRES Usagi out of lust and greed for something pure that he could never have. He wants to overpower her and have her for himself, while Mamoru wants to protect her and keep her safe and love her, and he understands her love and purity for everything.

Rawr! I am sorry for ranting, but rawr! I go a little crazy when people try to even suggest Dimande is "sweet"/etc, and try to say that he is "better" than Mamoru. Like, really?!

Verdandi you're fine, I didn't find it argumentative at all don't worry about it! Ahh... But now I see shouldn't have brought up Demando when making comparisons, he's a really touchy character.

I was definitely not approving of his actions or thought it was romantic, it was despicable and he deserved more than a slap from Usagi! I was just trying to make a point and compare how even someone with no social skills could show their well... "interest" in another way than just snapping and saying mean things.

Again, his way was wrong too, wayyyy wayyyyyyyyy wrong, worse than a thousand mean comments from Mamoru!

I was just sayin... Augh I knew I shouldn't have brought him up!

Yeah, let's not have anymore aspects brought up that could bring the fall of this thread

It's alright. Don't worry about it or mention it. Because then it'll just lead to more discussion on it.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

EurAsianGirl wrote:

I have to ask: Yes, Mamoru still stayed with Usagi despite finding out that "She" was the Princess, but one also must remember that really after learning who the Princess of his dreams was, and how that's connected to his past. Don't you think Mamoru would *want* to hang on to her just so he could have some semblance, connection to his past? This is a guy with a blank slate, completely disconnected from the world around him. Even if he didn't intially want to be the Princesse's romantic partner, once he found out he WAS and heard this whole story about Serenity and Endymion, what if the only reason he's hanging onto it is because its all he has as far as memories go? Even, if yes, by doing so he has to put up with that Odango-Atama who's constantly annoying him!

Do you really think that for anybody it would be possible to stay with someone who annoys you just because of past life? Especially considering that Mamoru on Earth has met a great deal of other girls. And nothing would keep him with Usagi, cause he has his memories, with or without her.

And Mamoru clearly likes being annoyed by Odango Atama. He even seeks more occasions for annoyance.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Remember, in S and SuperS, once we see them officially together and going out on dates and stuff, we mostly see Mamoru being either disinterested, embarrssed, fatherly to Usagi or all of the above!

In my country one could go to jail for behaving in such fatherly way And disinterested he is never. A little embarrassed maybe a few times - but it only proves how patient and flexible he is with her. And he never uses the fact of her being embarrassing as a reason for being out of it.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Also, look at the Doom Tree Arc for evidence. Until Mamoru got his memories back he never felt anything but friendship towards Usagi at best ((And thinking she's a loony stalker at worst)) Their relationship never really progressed until he got his memories back.

It did actually - even aliens noticed it and that's why they tortured Usagi and Mamoru.

And his progression could be seen earlier, when they played together and when they took care of that baby.

Its not just his past life though, once he knows about Crystal Tokyo and Chibi-Usa now he DEFINITELY has to stay with Usagi, because he got to know Chibi-Usa and came to love her. Mamoru is an honorable, caring man, he would never cost his daughter's future existence.

Ahaha, you know what I mean girl! He's not literally trying to be her father, I don't think Mamoru is "that" kinky
I meant that in the anime he ACTS more like her father, than like her boyfriend. As in, he's more platonic with her than romantic. And there are plenty of times he's disinterested in her too, not just embarrassed! Remember the S movie? Remember when he tried to get away from her in the aquarium during his first encounter with Fish-Eye? Or how about how even that Saori girl thought she had a chance with Mamoru just by seeing how childish, and well "not on Mamoru's level" Usagi was.

The babysitting episode just got them to be more friendly to each other, no romantic feelings developed in Mamoru for that episode, as well as throughout the Doom Tree Arc. He saw Usagi as a friend, in fact I kinda wanted this arc to be longer to see just how far their relationship would of went without his memories.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Its not just his past life though, once he knows about Crystal Tokyo and Chibi-Usa now he DEFINITELY has to stay with Usagi, because he got to know Chibi-Usa and came to love her. Mamoru is an honorable, caring man, he would never cost his daughter's future existence.

This. This right here. Exactly. I love you Chibiusa, but you totally just kinda ruins like...well, life. Because if anything were to ever happen between Usagi and Mamoru or if they were ever unhappy, they can't separate until after she's born. And yes, anyone can go "well they'll never ever break up!" -.- okay. We know. But to add realism to their relationship, you know make them more believable, anything could happen. Because crap does come up. Even for the most "perfect" couple. Even soulmates.

Just thought I'd throw this out there (again cough).

And yes, he does still love Usagi. Making sure that's on the table. Okay? I side with: he loves her. You'd have to be stupid to think he doesn't.

Well one could argue that when Chibi Usa went into the past she created a parallel timeline, so the timeline that we see in the anime/manga could occur differently than what Chibi Usa shows. If you went with that logic, Usagi and Mamoru could end up having a different daughter or break up and different things happen.

But I honestly don't think its Chibi-Usa that really keeps Mamoru together with Usagi.

I mean, its fiction, can't we accept for once, that someone does actually find their soul mate and that they stay together? Its the whole point of it being fantasy and fiction. It kind of gives me hope that its possible to have a long last relationship, one that transcends time and destiny. I think thats why I get aggaravated when people try to make it that Mamoru and Usagi's love aren't true. Their relationship has been a symbol of love and what a relationship should be like (especially with the manga version where its really more about them comign to work together, not just one person leading the relationship. They eventually combine their dreams and come together. Also I like how Usagi is often the one saving him and him at times feeling helples since he has no powers...) and what I would want my relationship to be like. It gives me hope in my current relationship and what my future could lead too.

When people sit here and try to destroy that, its like they are trying to tell me that I can't have a long lasting relationship, that I can't find a soul mate. It helps when I'm feeling down to look to Usagi and Mamo's love as a light of hope.

I kinda wanna make a thread on Chibiusa and if whether or not she should have traveled to the past....

Also, I don't think their love isn't true at all (I think it's totally true. Not sure if my sentence before this came out right XD). But I like to look at it from different angles. Thinking about how Mamoru is with Usagi and having someone kinda similar in my life that I love dearly has actually given me a greater appreciation for him and their love. So.

And I already love Mamoru and all his personas too <3

I'd say yes for sure! But I can understand why you have to ask, it IS disappointing IMO how they are "automatically in love" after finding out of their past lives. I wish there would have been MORE happening between them before but oh well.

BitterSweetZ, but they didn't fall in love after finding out of their past lives, they regained their memories after falling in love.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

Here's my question; why are you debating me when I agree with you in the first place that he does love her...? I have some thoughts about other areas in their relationship sure, but my main stance is I do believe that he loves her.

Well, but we debate ideas, not people, don't we? I also like expressing my thoughts about other areas.

As for Chibiusa, if she was really their only aim, there would be means of having her without any unnecessary contact. The problem is that anime (and nor the manga) has worked out the time-travel paradoxes.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

I meant that in the anime he ACTS more like her father, than like her boyfriend. As in, he's more platonic with her than romantic. And there are plenty of times he's disinterested in her too, not just embarrassed! Remember the S movie? Remember when he tried to get away from her in the aquarium during his first encounter with Fish-Eye? Or how about how even that Saori girl thought she had a chance with Mamoru just by seeing how childish, and well "not on Mamoru's level" Usagi was.

The babysitting episode just got them to be more friendly to each other, no romantic feelings developed in Mamoru for that episode, as well as throughout the Doom Tree Arc. He saw Usagi as a friend, in fact I kinda wanted this arc to be longer to see just how far their relationship would of went without his memories.

Without his memories he covered her when they were tortured by Ali and Ann till he passed out - and he was a mere human there. Ali and Ann also saw their mutual love which was a lesson for them. What's more, in previous episodes he was not only friendly - he showed preference for her over Natsumi. He's also inclined to touch Usagi - and he is generally very distant for such things.

How he acts like her father? And their relationship is nothing like platonic - they do kiss frequently and it's hinted they do more off screen. In the aquarium scene he didn't try to get away - it was Fisheye's interpretation which proved to be wrong when he tried to hit on Mamoru. And in S movie he was keeping track about what Usagi was saying despite reading that book. He also gave her advice on Luna (And they kiss). And why Saori's being a chibi is to be a proof of Mamoru's being indifferent?

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Also, where do you think Usagi's constant insecurities and jealousies come from? When Mamoru does the stuff like he did in the S movie Usagi starts thinking that she's not good enough for him, not on his level, etc etc. The fact that the anime created an even bigger age difference between the two really emphasizes this.

Also scenes like that show that when all is said and done, while Mamoru DOES harbor affection for Usagi, he doesn't treat her seriously, or worse; doesn't respect her.

Usagi's constant insecurities and jealousies come from her baing insecure and jealous and nothing else. Mamoru has nothing to do with it.

The big age difference is something like 4-6 years (if R movie is to be taken under consideration it's no more than four), so it's hardly a generational gap.

And Mamoru does respect Usagi and treat her seriously - if he didn't, he would agree with her that Luna's ingrateful chibi and she must be tracked. He respects her and treats her seriously, so he is open and honest with her.

Houyou no Senshi wrote:

Well he gave her a ring to symbolise their love and Usagi is not selfish enough to ever ask Mamoru to put his dreams on hold. Usagi and Mamoru believe in dreams, that is what they love each other, so no, it is not evidence for anything i think. When Mamoru was on the plane, all he thought about was Usagi. When he was killed he called out "Usako". The name Usako, is a real sign that he has true affection for her.

Quote:

Fisheye: Whats so good about her?
Mamoru: She has alot of dreams

Mamoru is humilated in public because Usagi is being humiliating in public, not because he doesn't love her. It should be noted, Mamoru never asks Usagi to change, if he did have a serious problem with her, why would he stick around...?

Yes- I don't see why Mamoru is critisized for being embarrassed and not Usagi for being embarrassing. Coincidentally, Usagi's friends are also embarrassed by her, only more openly vocal about it. Especially Rei. But nobody complains about that nor invents that they are friends just because of destiny.

Mamoru asked about Usagi's permission before going. And the anime made already point that it's right to go in that situation, with Reika and Motoki, twice. Also during their goodbye at the airport Mamoru really got over his reserve in public .

And IMO it's great he mentioned dreams as Usagi's special trait - it's really distinctive about her, which can be seen from the first episodes.

Small Lady wrote:

Well one could argue that when Chibi Usa went into the past she created a parallel timeline, so the timeline that we see in the anime/manga could occur differently than what Chibi Usa shows. If you went with that logic, Usagi and Mamoru could end up having a different daughter or break up and different things happen.

But I honestly don't think its Chibi-Usa that really keeps Mamoru together with Usagi.

I mean, its fiction, can't we accept for once, that someone does actually find their soul mate and that they stay together? Its the whole point of it being fantasy and fiction. It kind of gives me hope that its possible to have a long last relationship, one that transcends time and destiny. I think thats why I get aggaravated when people try to make it that Mamoru and Usagi's love aren't true. Their relationship has been a symbol of love and what a relationship should be like (especially with the manga version where its really more about them comign to work together, not just one person leading the relationship. They eventually combine their dreams and come together. Also I like how Usagi is often the one saving him and him at times feeling helples since he has no powers...) and what I would want my relationship to be like. It gives me hope in my current relationship and what my future could lead too.

When people sit here and try to destroy that, its like they are trying to tell me that I can't have a long lasting relationship, that I can't find a soul mate. It helps when I'm feeling down to look to Usagi and Mamo's love as a light of hope.

Yes, finding your soulmate through destiny is romantic and yes its nice to have something to believe in, but the way the anime went about doing this to Usagi and Mamoru really felt forced and took away the magic of their romance. Destiny and soul-mates only work well when its backed by evidence that the couple still fell in love in their current life WITHOUT the onset of memories. This is why the manga and PGSM make us really believe in Mamoru and Usagi's relationship, while the anime doesn't. Those two versions show us the right way as to do a "destiny" love-story as opposed to the anime which really just threw them together automatically.

Really what the anime should of done to make it more realistic was to not have the whole "Princess Serenity revelation" right after the elevator scene. They should have given us more episodes of Usagi and Mamoru getting closer and closer thanks to him opening up and the both of them finding out each others true identities. Yes, it might have made for more filler episodes but it would've been worth it so that the show could match the manga, THEN they could make an episode where Zoicite comes back for a repeat challenge and then the whole "past life" thing is revealed.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

I kinda wanna make a thread on Chibiusa and if whether or not she should have traveled to the past....

Also, I don't think their love isn't true at all (I think it's totally true. Not sure if my sentence before this came out right XD). But I like to look at it from different angles. Thinking about how Mamoru is with Usagi and having someone kinda similar in my life that I love dearly has actually given me a greater appreciation for him and their love. So.

And I already love Mamoru and all his personas too <3

THIS! That's exactly the reason I made this thread, to look at the the angles of Mamoru's love in the anime since the anime is probably the least blatant about it.

I also love Mamoru, he's one of my favorite characters, yes even his dorky anime version! I never understood the hate he gets, just because you don't think someone doesn't make a good couple with the main character doesn't mean you have to hate the character themselves! I honestly think Mamoru is one of the most complex and mysterious characters in all of Sailor Moon.

By the way, Tuxie, you should totally make that thread I'd have a ton of things to say regarding Chibi-Usa's arrival!

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Its not just his past life though, once he knows about Crystal Tokyo and Chibi-Usa now he DEFINITELY has to stay with Usagi, because he got to know Chibi-Usa and came to love her. Mamoru is an honorable, caring man, he would never cost his daughter's future existence.

This. This right here. Exactly. I love you Chibiusa, but you totally just kinda ruins like...well, life. Because if anything were to ever happen between Usagi and Mamoru or if they were ever unhappy, they can't separate until after she's born. And yes, anyone can go "well they'll never ever break up!" -.- okay. We know. But to add realism to their relationship, you know make them more believable, anything could happen. Because crap does come up. Even for the most "perfect" couple. Even soulmates.

Just thought I'd throw this out there (again cough).

And yes, he does still love Usagi. Making sure that's on the table. Okay? I side with: he loves her. You'd have to be stupid to think he doesn't.

For example, Seiya happened. Usagi obviously had feelings for him/her in the anime, but I betcha anything she knew she couldn't express them partly because that would cease Chibi-Usa's existence!

As for the love thing, while its definitely true that Anime Mamoru does love her, one could make the argument as to whether the love is truly romantic or whether its a paternal/platonic type of love. We definitely don't see Mamoru ever getting really passionate with Usagi the way lovers usually do.

Quote :

For example, Seiya happened. Usagi obviously had feelings for him/her in the anime

O.o Just cutting in here:

One of the best known lines from the series, episode 200:

Seiya: I'll never forget you
Usagi: And I just know we'll be friends forever
*everyone, including Princess Kakyuu sniggers*
Usagi: *has no idea whats going on*

I always felt it was very one-sided. Usagi saw him as a friend, Seiya however clearly did harbour some romantic interest in Usagi.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

EurAsianGirl wrote:

I meant that in the anime he ACTS more like her father, than like her boyfriend. As in, he's more platonic with her than romantic. And there are plenty of times he's disinterested in her too, not just embarrassed! Remember the S movie? Remember when he tried to get away from her in the aquarium during his first encounter with Fish-Eye? Or how about how even that Saori girl thought she had a chance with Mamoru just by seeing how childish, and well "not on Mamoru's level" Usagi was.

The babysitting episode just got them to be more friendly to each other, no romantic feelings developed in Mamoru for that episode, as well as throughout the Doom Tree Arc. He saw Usagi as a friend, in fact I kinda wanted this arc to be longer to see just how far their relationship would of went without his memories.

Without his memories he covered her when they were tortured by Ali and Ann till he passed out - and he was a mere human there. Ali and Ann also saw their mutual love which was a lesson for them. What's more, in previous episodes he was not only friendly - he showed preference for her over Natsumi. He's also inclined to touch Usagi - and he is generally very distant for such things.

How he acts like her father? And their relationship is nothing like platonic - they do kiss frequently and it's hinted they do more off screen. In the aquarium scene he didn't try to get away - it was Fisheye's interpretation which proved to be wrong when he tried to hit on Mamoru. And in S movie he was keeping track about what Usagi was saying despite reading that book. He also gave her advice on Luna (And they kiss). And why Saori's being a chibi is to be a proof of Mamoru's being indifferent?

To address all of your points: First of all, protecting her from the Doom Tree means nothing! He would've done that for anybody he was just being a good friend and doing what any decent person would do when in a life-threatning situation. Just because one doesn't ship Usagi/Mamoru doesn't mean they can make him out to be this complete monster with no sense of dignity, which Mamoru has shown us time and time again.

I don't really see how him grabbing onto Usagi in the babysitting episode can be seen as romantic? He just didn't want to hurt her feelings and was desperate for him to listen to her and show her that she IS good enough to take care of the baby with him. I'm sorry but there are no romantic connontations on Mamoru's part in that episode, its just him getting closer to being her friend, nothing romantic.

He acts like her father by constantly treating her on the same level as Chibi-Usa when they're together, and yes he sometimes doesn't take her seriously and does treat her like Luna and the rest of the Senshi do. Yes he's nicer about it and not as blunt but remember how in the first episode of S he told Usagi that maybe they should stop going on dates for awhile until she gets her grades up? That's treating her like a child and not like a girlfriend. Plus what about that ballet episode in SuperS where he just comes out and calls her fat! What boyfriend would ever say that to their girlfriend?

Also, just because the Senshi and Luna get embarrassed on Usagi and get on her case doesn't mean that her boyfriend should. A lover has a completely different role than those that are your friends/guardians and mentor, I know that if my boyfriend ever started acting like my mommy or was embarrased or rude to me I'd give him an earful! I'm sorry but that's not how one treats a partner.

((Though again, this isn't how Mamoru really is, just that Ikuhara didn't like him and thus painted him in a bad light))

Houyou no Senshi wrote:

Quote :

For example, Seiya happened. Usagi obviously had feelings for him/her in the anime

O.o Just cutting in here:

One of the best known lines from the series, episode 200:

Seiya: I'll never forget you
Usagi: And I just know we'll be friends forever
*everyone, including Princess Kakyuu sniggers*
Usagi: *has no idea whats going on*

I always felt it was very one-sided. Usagi saw him as a friend, Seiya however clearly did harbour some romantic interest in Usagi.

I think it was pretty obvious she was just playing dumb so as not to give Mamoru the wrong idea, its shown throughout Stars that she's beginning to develop feelings for Seiya, and she obviously knew that Seiya liked her that way or else she wouldn't have turned her cheek when he/she tried to kiss her! She wasn't surprised by that kiss.

But Mamoru clearly has an idea - he sniggers with everyone, but being the perfect jewel among manhood he is, he won't make problem of it, he trusts Usagi.

And Seiya here was pretty tactless.

We don't see Usagi here being anxious, embarrassed or conflicted - she is completely confident in her wish to be friends with Seiya.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

First of all, protecting her from the Doom Tree means nothing! He would've done that for anybody he was just being a good friend and doing what any decent person would do when in a life-threatning situation. Just because one doesn't ship Usagi/Mamoru doesn't mean they can make him out to be this complete monster with no sense of dignity, which Mamoru has shown us time and time again.

One thing is helping somebody in danger, another is covering another person and withstanding prolonged torture for her.

Ali on seeing Mamoru's actions says: this is love. Not - this is friendship.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

I don't really see how him grabbing onto Usagi in the babysitting episode can be seen as romantic? He just didn't want to hurt her feelings and was desperate for him to listen to her and show her that she IS good enough to take care of the baby with him. I'm sorry but there are no romantic connontations on Mamoru's part in that episode, its just him getting closer to being her friend, nothing romantic.

And what behaviour of Mamoru in this scene would be romantic for you? Isn't him being desperate for a not very close acquaintance a proof of his caring?

EurAsianGirl wrote:

remember how in the first episode of S he told Usagi that maybe they should stop going on dates for awhile until she gets her grades up? That's treating her like a child and not like a girlfriend.

I disagree - IMO it's treating her like responsible adult. In grown up world you have to put sometimes duty above pleasure.
Treating like a child would be for me overcomforting her.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Also, just because the Senshi and Luna get embarrassed on Usagi and get on her case doesn't mean that her boyfriend should. A lover has a completely different role than those that are your friends/guardians and mentor, I know that if my boyfriend ever started acting like my mommy or was embarrased or rude to me I'd give him an earful! I'm sorry but that's not how one treats a partner.

((Though again, this isn't how Mamoru really is, just that Ikuhara didn't like him and thus painted him in a bad light))

But writers don't think in these terms of like and dislike of a character - they think of ideas and messages to convey.

And what role should a lover have? Idealisation of his lover?

And maybe the comment of her overweight was crossing a little - but generally it shows how Usagi doesn't have to be perfect, because Mamoru won't run away because of a little fat, broken teeth, bad grades or burnt cookies.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Yes, finding your soulmate through destiny is romantic and yes its nice to have something to believe in, but the way the anime went about doing this to Usagi and Mamoru really felt forced and took away the magic of their romance. Destiny and soul-mates only work well when its backed by evidence that the couple still fell in love in their current life WITHOUT the onset of memories. This is why the manga and PGSM make us really believe in Mamoru and Usagi's relationship, while the anime doesn't. Those two versions show us the right way as to do a "destiny" love-story as opposed to the anime which really just threw them together automatically.

Well, it's your opinion really. Cause I prefer the most anime version.

In manga IMO they fell for each a little too quickly and too soon found out about Sailor Moon/Tuxedo Mask identity.

In PGSM IMO there was too much emphasis on a triangle with Mamoru's fiancee.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Really what the anime should of done to make it more realistic was to not have the whole "Princess Serenity revelation" right after the elevator scene. They should have given us more episodes of Usagi and Mamoru getting closer and closer thanks to him opening up and the both of them finding out each others true identities. Yes, it might have made for more filler episodes but it would've been worth it so that the show could match the manga, THEN they could make an episode where Zoicite comes back for a repeat challenge and then the whole "past life" thing is revealed.

I don't think so. Probably this would help those, who believe that Usagi and Mamoru have hated each other up to this moment and take literally his promotion to second jerk. But for people for me who have long notice the signs of their mutual attraction it would be unnecessary prolongation.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

I think it was pretty obvious she was just playing dumb so as not to give Mamoru the wrong idea, its shown throughout Stars that she's beginning to develop feelings for Seiya, and she obviously knew that Seiya liked her that way or else she wouldn't have turned her cheek when he/she tried to kiss her! She wasn't surprised by that kiss.

I think you totally misunderstood what was going on between Usagi and Seiya. Yes, Usagi was developing feelings for Seiya. But at the same time, she was remaining faithful to Mamoru. Any time Seiya's feelings were thrown in her face and her own feelings for Seiya were being thrown in her face, she was basically like "no, no, no, I have Mamoru. I love him and he loves me". The kiss from Seiya did surprise her, but she was quick enough to turn her head so she wouldn't do the one thing she knew would kill her; kiss another person who is not Mamoru. And hello, if she wasn't surprised by that kiss from Seiya, don't you think their lips would have connected? Because she was having feelings for Seiya too (though not as strongly). However, her feelings for Mamoru outweighed what she felt for Seiya. Give Usagi some props/credit; she may be a little ditzy and naive, but she's quick enough to know when she's being hit on or someone wants to kiss her.

Basically look at it like this:
Mamoru -- she is in love with him.
Seiya -- she had a little crush on him/her.

Love outweighs a little crush. A little infatuation.

I do ship Usagi and Seiya, but I'm not gonna sit here and lie to myself and act like Usagi didn't still whole heartedly love Mamoru in Stars (and Mamoru always loves her back). She did. Her feelings for Seiya added to the conflict she was having with him/her. That's what makes it a little fun and gives their relationship dynamic and adds the 'what if' question. But do not sit here and call Usagi basically a dumb cheating chibi because she wanted to fool Mamoru. That's not what happened at all. She wanted to mostly lie to herself and avoid it because she didn't want what was going on to be a reality. It really was all too much for Usagi -_- she really needed Mamoru by her side. Especially to cockblock Seiya so Seiya would've gotten the hint sooner.

I would bet you, after Stars, after Seiya and them went home, and after that kiss under the moon that ended the series, Usagi told Mamoru what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how that would've went down. Usagi asked Mamoru how much he loved her and he answered, which refueled her confidence in their relationship, so they kissed. And probably after she sat him down and explained what happened. There may have been small conflict, but they would've gotten through it.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

And hello, if she wasn't surprised by that kiss from Seiya, don't you think their lips would have connected? Because she was having feelings for Seiya too (though not as strongly).

I don't see her having any feelings for Seiya. And the only possibility of their lips connecting would be for Seiya to force himself on her.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

I would bet you, after Stars, after Seiya and them went home, and after that kiss under the moon that ended the series, Usagi told Mamoru what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how that would've went down. Usagi asked Mamoru how much he loved her and he answered, which refueled her confidence in their relationship, so they kissed. And probably after she sat him down and explained what happened. There may have been small conflict, but they would've gotten through it.

I don't think so- not because Usagi is a cheating chibi, but because there was really nothing to tell. She would obviously had Mamoru asked- but he wouldn't, as he already has a whole grasp of situation and trusts Usagi absolutely.

And IMO her confidence in their relationship didn't need refueling - she already knew, why he never contacted her (was dead).

I meant refeuling because she probably had doubts with herself because she felt awful with what happened with Seiya because something was there, just moreso with Seiya than there was with Usagi. And what I mean by her having doubts would be she could have felt like she messed up, like she caused Seiya to like her, she caused that complex, like she isn't good enough for Mamoru, etc. Usagi probably needed that extra boost for herself. You more or less ask someone why they love you simply to give yourself a boost and see that the person you asked does love you and for the right reasons. You don't ask just to ask. Unless you're like, conceited and love being praised. And Usagi doesn't strike me as the latter, so...

Since I know the complexity of relationships, I look at them with that lens. Yeah, they love each other and are soul mates and all that, but they are not that flawless. Who would want to be that flawless? That would be the most boring relationship ever. That's how a relationship dies. There's no spark, there's nothing that changes, there's no fights to open up communication, there's no passion, etc. So the relationship crumbles from boredom. And I would hope, since Usagi and Mamoru are soul mates, that they would be complex (even if we don't always see how), otherwise, it would die off.

But let me ask just one thing - this thread is about critisising Mamoru's attitude to Usagi - his feelins, behaviours, words, negligences etc. And not only here, but the whole fandom. Most people have problems with Mamoru (I am probably only one who had more problems with Usagi, but she's fifteen).

But if somebody really believes Usagi had some feelings for Seiya, what right would be to critisise Mamoru? What could expect girl who fell for first guy who hit on her, once her fiance was away? Is it fair to put down Mamoru for reading a book or not thinking 5% is a perfect score?

When people criticize Mamoru for reading a book or what Mamoru says in regard to Usagi getting a 5% is the way he handled the situation.

To be honest, I just think it's crap that he was reading when she was talking to him. He could have easily slipped in his bookmark for a moment to listen to her and then resumed reading when she was finished.

And then to be honest again, I don't see him as doing anything wrong when he snuck up on Usagi and saw that she got a 5% (I thought it was rather hilarious and totally saw it coming). He wasn't cold or mean or scolding or anything. He just said "we may not be able to date for awhile until you get your grades up". I thought he was right to say that. He does care about her and love her and he demonstrates this by saying basically "as much as I love you, your grades are more important right now (you are the future queen) and if I have to, I will sacrifice our fun until your grades are up. This isn't a break up or anything, this is just to get you studying to get your grades up. We can do fun things again when you start doing better, Usako."

And she obviously knew it wasn't a break up, otherwise she would've flipped out 100x harder (like she did in the R season). But I definitely think he was right on that one and that was a good example of his love for her. The reading a book thing while she was talking to him, not so much. But no one is perfect. He's gonna mess up just like anybody else. Everybody messes up sometimes.

Lady Tuxedo wrote:

I meant refeuling because she probably had doubts with herself because she felt awful with what happened with Seiya because something was there, just moreso with Seiya than there was with Usagi. And what I mean by her having doubts would be she could have felt like she messed up, like she caused Seiya to like her, she caused that complex, like she isn't good enough for Mamoru, etc. Usagi probably needed that extra boost for herself. You more or less ask someone why they love you simply to give yourself a boost and see that the person you asked does love you and for the right reasons. You don't ask just to ask. Unless you're like, conceited and love being praised. And Usagi doesn't strike me as the latter, so...

Since I know the complexity of relationships, I look at them with that lens. Yeah, they love each other and are soul mates and all that, but they are not that flawless. Who would want to be that flawless? That would be the most boring relationship ever. That's how a relationship dies. There's no spark, there's nothing that changes, there's no fights to open up communication, there's no passion, etc. So the relationship crumbles from boredom. And I would hope, since Usagi and Mamoru are soul mates, that they would be complex (even if we don't always see how), otherwise, it would die off.

Oh yes don't worry, I completely understand that it wasn't because Usagi's feelings for Seiya were overriding her feelings for Mamoru, not at all she was just confused and had a little crush which was meant for great conflict.

I was just pointing out to the Moonlight-Lady that Usagi WAS aware of Seiya's feelings by the end of the series, that little moment where she pretended not to know what they were talking about at the end was so that there wouldn't be an awkward moment, since everybody was there.

But alas this thread isn't on Usagi's feelings, its on Mamoru's^^; I'd like to counter just one point you had there Tux. You think Mamoru was right in telling Usagi that there'd be no more dates till she'd get her grades up correct? You took that to mean that he's really pushing her to try her hardest and for her own good?

I agree, and while of course Usagi knew that it wasn't a break-up I still think Mamoru could've handled it better. The way he told her was rather abrupt and cold, he was all like. "OH HAI! I SEE THERE DAT YOU GOT A BAD SCORE AGAIN, MAYBE WE SHOULD POSTPONE OUR NEXT DATE FOR AWHILE, STUDY HARD NOW, KAITHNXBAI!"

If he was really disappointed by the prospect he could've looked at least a little down, or explained to Usagi gently and had a nice discussion with her about the importance of getting her grades up and why they can't go out till she does, I'm all for tough love and really doing what's best for the person, but I thought the way Mamoru handled it, was like always, very cold and clumsy. Also even though he says he's not, that little convo definitely made it seem like he's somewhat disappointed in who Usagi is and wants her to become like more of a lady, whereas someone like Seiya never cared about what grades she got or how silly she could be in public, he found that charming and never wanted her to change.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Yes, finding your soulmate through destiny is romantic and yes its nice to have something to believe in, but the way the anime went about doing this to Usagi and Mamoru really felt forced and took away the magic of their romance. Destiny and soul-mates only work well when its backed by evidence that the couple still fell in love in their current life WITHOUT the onset of memories. This is why the manga and PGSM make us really believe in Mamoru and Usagi's relationship, while the anime doesn't. Those two versions show us the right way as to do a "destiny" love-story as opposed to the anime which really just threw them together automatically.

Well, it's your opinion really. Cause I prefer the most anime version.

In manga IMO they fell for each a little too quickly and too soon found out about Sailor Moon/Tuxedo Mask identity.

In PGSM IMO there was too much emphasis on a triangle with Mamoru's fiancee.

EurAsianGirl wrote:

Really what the anime should of done to make it more realistic was to not have the whole "Princess Serenity revelation" right after the elevator scene. They should have given us more episodes of Usagi and Mamoru getting closer and closer thanks to him opening up and the both of them finding out each others true identities. Yes, it might have made for more filler episodes but it would've been worth it so that the show could match the manga, THEN they could make an episode where Zoicite comes back for a repeat challenge and then the whole "past life" thing is revealed.

I don't think so. Probably this would help those, who believe that Usagi and Mamoru have hated each other up to this moment and take literally his promotion to second jerk. But for people for me who have long notice the signs of their mutual attraction it would be unnecessary prolongation.

I'll address all your points in one post again:

1. Yes, him taking the attacks for Usagi CAN just mean friendship and not love, if I saw one of my dear friends being beaten to death by some wacky alien monster you better believe I would take the brunt for them! Mamoru is just that kind of guy, its in his nature to protect people, why do you think why he becomes an unofficial part of the Sailor Team? His whole personality and persona is all about justice so of course he would of done that for anybody, especially someone he's beginning to become good friends with! But this is not a bad thing, the fact that he's not instantly in love with Usagi is actually good and a normal part of getting to know someone, this could of actually been developed really beautifully if the makers of the anime took advantage of this and made the Doom Tree arc longer, thereby showing Usagi and Mamoru's growing friendship blossoming into romance. They missed a great opportunity yet again!

2. No, I'm sorry but the "fat" comment didn't indicate whatsoever that Mamoru loves Usagi no matter how she looks, it indicated that he's a thoughtless jerk that doesn't care about offending the girlfriend he supposedly "loves." That comment was extremely rude, out of place, and dare I say had undertones of Mamoru suggesting that Usagi go on a diet. Plus, it was fat-shaming something I'm not particularly fond of...

3. How on earth could you like the Anime Mamoru and Anime lovestory of Usagi/Mamoru over the manga and PGSM?!?! ESPECIALLY PGSM? Are you kidding me? Seriously? I--I don't even... The anime is the whole reason there's even an argument for this thread in the first place! It's got to be the most sloppily done version of the Miracle Romance depicted in all canons of Sailor Moon! It feels forced, too abrupt and Mamoru is just down-right mean and cold sometimes!