Rachael - it's so funny what you said about your opinion changing as you got older. It's the same with me. I'm about your age - a few years older - but I like Mamoru a lot more now that I'm watching the show as an adult rather than a teen.

I'd say that Jupiter hit one of the major thematic differences on the head with regard to Mamoru's portrayal in the anime and the manga. To be sure, Mamoru in the anime is far more reserved in his public affection for Usagi. There are a number of instances---and I wish I could recall them specifically---where he is apparently embarrassed by Usagi's fawning. This is more or less resolved by Sailor Stars when he is about to leave for the United States and he emphatically tells Usagi that he loves her. I use "emphatically" because the phrase he uses for "I love you" in Japanese is especially strong, reserved for a heightened level of intimacy. My poor knowledge of the Japanese language betrays me here as I cannot call to mind the specific linguistic differences involved in "I love you" when said in Japanese. Nevertheless, from conversations I've had and from material I've read, I am confident that Mamoru's line carried with it more weight than: "Honey, I'll see ya later! Love you lots!" With the ring he gives to Usagi before leaving, their love is definitely the real deal.

I can't defend Mamoru's lack of style in the anime outside of his standard tuxedo attire. To be fair, a number of the characters---even Michiru and Haruka---were prone to wearing some hideous outfits over the course of the series. Still, Mamoru is the repeat offender by a country mile. I get the impression it has a good deal to do with a staff composed of primarily men who attempt to put the characters in a number of faux stylish or "cute" clothes. But I'll take Rei's weird pink overalls over Mamoru's green jacket and oddly colored slacks.

Mamoru definitely gets a bum rap in the anime due to the unusually immature nature of his teasing of Usagi. He was less playful in words and more pointed than he probably should have been. I mostly blame the R season, however, for having Mamoru earn the ire of numerous Sailor Moon fans. It was a bizarre and ultimately unnecessary plot for Mamoru to end his relationship with Usagi. If I had to venture a guess, it would be that they, the writers and producers, wanted a "dramatic" element to linger over the filler episodes before the plot decisively moved toward a confrontation with the Black Moon Clan.

On a slightly separate note, I find it odd that a number of fans harp on Mamoru being brainwashed as if its some sort of character defect. It probably culminates with the perception that Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen was "weak" in the anime, and thus in some shape or form must have "permitted" himself to lose his memories and become evil. Regardless of whether it's the anime or the manga, my impression is that it's not so much Mamoru being weak willed but because the respective big bads (Dark Kingdom in anime/manga; Shadow Galactica in the manga) poured all their energy into scrambling his mind. He's not the only character to fall prey to such attempts: the Witches 5 trapped the Senshi within their own desires and concerns in the manga while Usagi was almost completely lost to Nehellenia's illusions in the field of flowers in the anime. Yet Mamoru seemingly receives the greatest amount of heat for being brainwashed. It's rather uneven in my estimation.

Mamoru is, as Rachael alluded to, a quiet and reserved young man. He doesn't need to shower Usagi with kisses and hugs every single moment to show his love for her. In fact, that would make him rather stale.

I wonder how Mamoru's character is received amongst Japanese girls, and if there exists a cultural difference. I wouldn't be completely surprised if that were the case.

Brit-chan wrote:

enogitna wrote:

That's such an interesting point, I keep wondering about that myself.
I was only in Tokyo for about a year, but I did see couples be affectionate. I mean, not like in America (where I am from). But couples (youthful couples) do hold hands, hug and kiss - in the right setting (lunchtime at the quad? yes. library? No. date? yes. supermarket? No. Odaiba ferris wheel? OH HECK YES. LOL.)

I figured that. Its funny cause I think it was actually a video on youtube that was posted on weeaboo stories with some chick telling weeaboos how NOT to act. And to not run around and squeal and hug random people and stuff. I mean, i figured couples in public do things like hold hands and stuff. But i always was under the impression that, at least with older people, its meant to be more reserved. Btw, awesome for you being able to give actual testament from living there for a year. XD

I recall someone posting at an somewhat academic site about Japanese culture- it MAY have been an SCA site?- that in Japan, the idea of kissing someone in public is socially just like "doing it" in public- like, TOTALLY unacceptable and perverse and inappropriate if there are people watching.

I feel that Mamoru really respects Usagi. He might berate her when she acts childish, but he isn't cruel to her. Nor does he act like a jerk because he thinks it's "what women want." There are SO many boyfriends like that in works of fiction, and it gets really annoying after a while.

Mamoru has done a couple of things to irritated me--particularly when he kissed a drunk Sailor Moon in both the manga and anime, and one or two occasions in the anime when he comments on her weight.

But he's a great boyfriend overall. My two favorite moments are both from Supers.

The first one is when Sailor Moon blocks Puuko, the balloon girl, so that she'll be suffocated instead of Mamoru. I love the way Mamoru screams "USAKOOOOO!" when he thinks she's dead, and finally manages to break free. It was a surprisingly poignant moment for such a goofy episode.

The second is much more lighthearted, but I still like it because it shows that Mamoru, too, can be a bit weird when it comes to Usagi. It's from the episode where PallaPalla makes children have cavities and sets up a fake dental clinic so she can get their dream mirrors.

See, Usagi got ticked off because he blushed when a beautiful woman greeted him, and he was going over ways to make up with her for it. At one point, pretended to hug her and said out loud, "Hug! Kiss!" It was so cute. XD And so unexpected.

Rachael wrote:

The first one is when Sailor Moon blocks Puuko, the balloon girl, so that she'll be suffocated instead of Mamoru. I love the way Mamoru screams "USAKOOOOO!" when he thinks she's dead, and finally manages to break free. It was a surprisingly poignant moment for such a goofy episode.

I too thought that that was such in incredible scene. However, that episode is just another example of crap animation ruining a beautiful moment. The goofiness of that episode drove me insane but Mamoru saved the episode, I will say. The tearing of his garments displayed such intensity by him. Ah, goodness.

Rachael wrote:

See, Usagi got ticked off because he blushed when a beautiful woman greeted him, and he was going over ways to make up with her for it. At one point, pretended to hug her and said out loud, "Hug! Kiss!" It was so cute. XD And so unexpected.

I do not remember that! Now I must go and find it. Gyah. Do you happen to remember which episode number that is?

Hmm Jupiter, nice topic and awesome views you have on Mamoru/Tuxedo.

When I first watched the anime, I was aware that in Japan, at that time, things were different and certain behaviors weren't seen with good eyes like here. PDA was extremely rare and I guess that I got used with anime!Mamoru's behavior UNTIL I read the manga and realize how different they were.

Many things that mangakas try to show to their audience is how the Occident is, how we hug and kiss and show affection to each other and it's not a taboo for us and someway, Naoko did the same thing: see how affectionate the girls are with each other, how they're more independent than girls from their age... and the same thing happens with Mamoru - both in manga and anime, he's an young man who lives by himself for years, studies and has a past with Usagi. The difference is that in the anime, he's more "dry" and not used to Usagi's affection than he is in the manga.

Maybe it's because of the whole high school/college thing? Probably. In high school he was surrounded by teenagers who had expectations and even him being concentrated to find out about his past, certain things about him were like any other teenager. In the anime, well, he's grown up, has more baggage than Usagi, he's past the whole high school awkward phase, you know?

However, I don't like how he was written on anime, how he seems so cold and distant and sometimes he seems so in love with Usagi that makes you go from to in instants. Of course that he has his moments on the manga too, but like Jupiter said, they're not just a couple, they're friends too and you can see each other treating themselves not just as highschool sweethearts that are meant to be together, but as friends who care deeply about each other and happen to have a past together.

Did I make any sense? It's almost 8am and I'm going to the ER now cause there's something wrong with my throat...

[quote="Sailor Jupiter"]

Rachael wrote:

I too thought that that was such in incredible scene. However, that episode is just another example of crap animation ruining a beautiful moment. The goofiness of that episode drove me insane but Mamoru saved the episode, I will say. The tearing of his garments displayed such intensity by him. Ah, goodness.

Oh, God, I know. XD I don't mind Ando's art in sillier moments, but it almost ruins the serious ones. I know there are episodes with more than one animation director. Too bad this wasn't one of them.

And the episode with the dentist's office is episode 153.

Nathy, what the heck? o_O Get you to an ER right now! What are you doing here?

Rachael wrote:

Nathy, what the heck? o_O Get you to an ER right now! What are you doing here?

Sailor Moon >>>>> my throat. See, priorities, I have'em! :lolz:

#Edit:

On volume 4, act 15, Sailor Mars is captured by the Black Moon guys and Usagi is pissed off when she sees ChibiUsa lurking around, discovering their identities. She is so mad that she tries to hit ChibiUsa, who runs away and later, Luna goes to Mamoru's apartment to tell that the brat is around, so he can take her inside and take care of her....

Anyway, Usagi feels bad that she was closer to hit the kid and, spontaneously, Mamoru hugs her, telling her to cheer up.



These are the things that make me love manga!Mamoru more than his anime version. It's not because he's her boyfriend, it's because he cares about her as a friend and more than a friend.... I love this scene.

(ps.: i got a nasty case of tonsilitis... and maybe a hernia 'cause i had a laparotomy exactly a month ago and now i am in bedrest for real. )

Nathy wrote:

Anyway, Usagi feels bad that she was closer to hit the kid and, spontaneously, Mamoru hugs her, telling her to cheer up.



These are the things that make me love manga!Mamoru more than his anime version. It's not because he's her boyfriend, it's because he cares about her as a friend and more than a friend.... I love this scene.

(ps.: i got a nasty case of tonsilitis... and maybe a hernia 'cause i had a laparotomy exactly a month ago and now i am in bedrest for real. )

So glad you are better! You are a true Sailor Moon trooper. Hee.

And I must agree with you on the scene. It is really one of my favorites. I love the concern that Mamoru feels and portrays for Usagi. He treats her very much as a friend as he does a girlfriend and I think that aspect is very important in their relationship.

i prefer manga mamoru since i think in the anime he seemed a bit embarrassed to be with usagi. there was this one episode where he introduced her as a friend while at the time they were dating. manga mamoru seemed more open to me but i do love anime mamoru when he's somewhat romantic with usagi:3

Well, I absolutely adore anime-Mamoru. And I can't really get all the hate

Sailor Jupiter wrote:

As Tuxedo Kamen, he is a rather embaressing and useless figure. All he really does is enter with an incredibly corny line (that more times than not makes little sense); he has no powers, and simply throws roses and pokes people with his stick.

I think that "no powers" isn't quite correct - while he clearly isn't on senshi level, roses normally don't do such things like his. And he also has healing powers (though not self-healing), Usagi in danger alert and some gravity resistanc?

(And I can't understand why he gets so much hate for his speeches when Usagi's aren't much better).

And his near powerlessness actually works for me, as he shows that you don't need to be extrapowerful to matter. He knows that he is powerless, but he can still help with quick-thinking or sacrifice.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

Well, I absolutely adore anime-Mamoru. And I can't really get all the hate

Sailor Jupiter wrote:

As Tuxedo Kamen, he is a rather embaressing and useless figure. All he really does is enter with an incredibly corny line (that more times than not makes little sense); he has no powers, and simply throws roses and pokes people with his stick.

I think that "no powers" isn't quite correct - while he clearly isn't on senshi level, roses normally don't do such things like his. And he also has healing powers (though not self-healing), Usagi in danger alert and some gravity resistanc?

(And I can't understand why he gets so much hate for his speeches when Usagi's aren't much better).

And his near powerlessness actually works for me, as he shows that you don't need to be extrapowerful to matter. He knows that he is powerless, but he can still help with quick-thinking or sacrifice.

AGREE
SO MUCH

May I hug you?

Sailor Jupiter wrote:

I think most UsagixSeiya shippers base their beliefs on the anime -- either with ignoring the manga or having read it at all. In the Stars season I too could easily become a Seiya fan because he is imploringly beautiful in his emotions for Usagi. In a way, he almost reminds me of some of the characteristics manga!Mamoru would have had if he had been adequately portrayed in the anime. That raw open honesty of emotions -- often seen in the manga. So I can actually 100% side with those shippers, because anime!Mamoru makes me so angry and Usagi deserves so much much.

I didn’t see Usagi and Seiya’s relationship in last season as in creators’ opinion better that the one with Mamoru nor their presenting Seiya as more devoted to her. In fact, I see Seiya’s treatment of Usagi as often quite awful – he is selfish in his desires and inconsiderate to hers. IMO, the creators’ intent for this plot was to show that Mamoru is irreplaceable for Usagi.

Thereisnospoon303 wrote:

On a slightly separate note, I find it odd that a number of fans harp on Mamoru being brainwashed as if its some sort of character defect. It probably culminates with the perception that Mamoru/Tuxedo Kamen was "weak" in the anime, and thus in some shape or form must have "permitted" himself to lose his memories and become evil. Regardless of whether it's the anime or the manga, my impression is that it's not so much Mamoru being weak willed but because the respective big bads (Dark Kingdom in anime/manga; Shadow Galactica in the manga) poured all their energy into scrambling his mind. He's not the only character to fall prey to such attempts: the Witches 5 trapped the Senshi within their own desires and concerns in the manga while Usagi was almost completely lost to Nehellenia's illusions in the field of flowers in the anime. Yet Mamoru seemingly receives the greatest amount of heat for being brainwashed. It's rather uneven in my estimation.

Mamoru is, as Rachael alluded to, a quiet and reserved young man. He doesn't need to shower Usagi with kisses and hugs every single moment to show his love for her. In fact, that would make him rather stale.

Mamoru’s been brainwashed in anime two times (in 1 and 5, though some count also R season) and strange as it may seems, it showed for me that he is not easily brainwashable. Because even filled with evil he still retains some goodness – mostly when it’s about protecting Usagi. He also criticizes Kunzite’s dirty tactics and confronts his monsters to not attack the innocents. He is lucky that he didn’t get punished with eternal sleep like Jadeite. In Nehellenia arc he somehow manages to hear Usagi’s voice even though it’s supposed to be impossible.

In Doom Tree Arc of R Mamoru lost his memories, but I don’t count it as brainwashing. Silver Crystal wiped also girls’ memories and Luna was able to bring them back, which she couldn’t do for Mamoru. And he remembered all on his own.



As for Mamoru’s reserve regarding affection, I believe that it’s a mixture of his personality – introverted, reserved and serious – his home culture, postulating certain distance and his upbringing, which didn’t encourage being openly affectionate. It was actually hinted in the anime that Usagi and Mamoru act pretty boldly for the social rules – Unazuki is pretty sure they haven’t kissed yet. And in R movie girls are shocked that they are going to kiss in public place – which in fact they often do, when nobody’s present, or so they think.





And to sum up:

http://fyeahcontroversialcharacters.tumblr.com/post/35437776394/defense-of-mamoru-chiba-tuxedo-kamen-from-sailor-moon

Now, I'm glad that in anime they spared us and Mamoru his brainwashing in Black Moon Clan arc and involvement with Black Lady . IMO, making it just a Wiseman's vision to test Usagi instead was a brilliant idea.

Sorry, I'm prude and incest isn't best . Futhermore, it was really pointless subplot and added nothing to action.

I don't know if I am or not. It's kinda makes a point in the sense of how far the Dark power corrupted Chibiusa's love for Mamoru. When she becomes black lady, it's a corruption of her dreams and love- her want to grow up and her love for Mamoru who's become such a prince to her(platonically), thus an aspiration for what she wants in her own prince.

Using it to play on Usagi's Jealousy, makes it a little 'eh' for me because ..well.. why would she think Black Lady would kiss Mamoru if she knows that's her kid with him in the future? (If it's her own insecurities they're using.)

---

I like all versions of Mamoru, picking between Anime/Manga is actually a bit difficult for me. I like that Anime Mamoru's personality is a bit fleshed out and the little things he has/does (such as having friends from high school. Tutoring the girls and ect.). I wish he had more interaction with Minako and Makoto more. He seems very well respected among the group and none seems to think less of him.

Manga Mamoru is interesting in the fact of his use of power and how strong he is. Like being the only one to break out of the illusion Zirconia casts on the entire group. I mean, Sailor Moon and even the Outers couldn't get out of it. But he left it on his own and then woke them up. That's a pretty good testament to his own willpower (and mildly disturbing seeing as those images are horrific. Makes me wonder..what sort of nightmares haunt him?).

Hm.. I can't decide. I can't I have both? <3?

I liked that playing with Usagi's jealousy showed that she can be insecure too. And it tied the whole breakup plot and Chibiusa plot and their rivalry. It's not only the kiss, but the whole fear of abandoment by Mamoru.

And I believe that Chibiusa's crush on Mamoru was totally innocent.This suplot for me only adds to stereotype of easily brainwashed Mamoru...

----

Yes, I agree. Though IMO it's like with most of main characters that they're more powerful in manga, yet in anime more fleshed. In manga it often looks awfully like Mamoru had Usagi, Chibiusa and that's all.

And ITA that the manga scene with breaking out of the nightmare was awesome. IMO in anime this is supposed be the equivalent of his breaking of curse in Nehellenia arc in Stars, but it's not nearly as powerful and awesome.

But they already played out Usagi's jealousy before hand in the Doom Tree arc.

Besides, Mamoru being easily braindwashed? It's never come off that way for me. In fact, I think it's only happened twice. The third time he was reborn <- That is different than being brainwashed. And that's the Manga.

Anime it's only happened TWICE and he's not the only one that had his mind messed with.

What about the mirror house with the Senshi?

What about Anime Usagi falling prey to mind meddling twice (Diamond and Nehellenia).

And then Manga Usagi falling for mind meddling- By Zosicite in the beginning? When he, dressed as a girl, sent out broadcasts with hypnotic suggestions for the masses to find the Silver Crystal? She was one of them.

And of course, Chibiusa. Twice if you count the movies.

It's unfair to paint Mamoru sterotypical when everyone else in the entire series has had at one point and time been brainwashed or reborn under the evil influence's power to go against Sailor Moon.


And also, Logic of the villain dictates that if you want to not only demoralize your enemy into them not being able to fight back as well as they could've - you take what's most important. In this, what's most important to Usagi is Mamoru. It's actually a testament to how important he is to her. Then you have him as the guardian of earth- well that's just icing on the cake. You take out the guardian, you take over the place.


I personally like the narrative of how Chibiusa, on her own, breaks out of the influence as it's a testament to her bond with Pluto too. Also, Mamoru breaks out of it as well, on his own while holding Sailor Moon's items. (I like to think it's his psychometry powers at work here because there's high emotion attached to the compact as well as the Silver Crystal.)


----

Maybe not as powerful, after all the animation company and writers jumped shark completely in SuperS, so I didn't expect it to be as awesome, however watching Usagi suffer was specular in it's own way as it's the only time in the series you see her completely bereft of any powers whatsoever, her team, and her love - and just watching her..

I think that's what I enjoyed most about it.

Mamoru's fascination with the mirrors was also creepy but interesting. Though I wonder why the girls didn't find his behavior extremely weird given how much time he spends with all of them? I mean, that's the first thing that should pop up in the mind that "Something's wrong and it could be something bad happening."

Yes, I also wonder why nobody was more concerned - especially given that soon before he was ill and this was an indication that Earth's in danger.

I also like the Nehellenia arc in Stars because of how much Usagi was put through.

---

ITA that he really isn't more susceptible for brainwashing than others - but somehow that stereotype was born and persists, despite being unfair...

In doom tree arc Usagi's jealousy was different - due to Mamoru's amnesia he forgot everything about their previous relations in all previous incarnations. And his feelings must have started from scratch and so for Usagi there was legitimate fear he could choose somebody else, for instance Natsumi. Here there was tested Usagi's faith in their existing relationship.

In Black Moon Arc I didn't quite get why Mamoru was debrainwashed - the focus was mostly on Chbiusa and Sailor Pluto.

Manga wise, it's because he was holding the items Usagi had. He has a vision/sense of her that snapped him out of it. (ie: Power of Love helped apparently.)

I thought that it was because of the timestop? Yes, he was also holding the sceptre of their love - but his snapping out was less a focus than Chibiusa's, unfortunately. (Now I believe that it might be similar to the final of anime first season?)

I think that what bugs me about his being brainwashed in Black Moon is that's so soon after the first arc. There might be plot reasons, but it's too repetitive for my taste.

Moonlight Lady wrote:

I think that what bugs me about his being brainwashed in Black Moon is that's so soon after the first arc. There might be plot reasons, but it's too repetitive for my taste.

That is probably the only main issue that I had with the manga - that it was just a regular routine for Mamoru to be brainwashed in every Arc. It became an overused plot choice for me but also it became a little bothersome that he was always capable of being brainwashed. I know that in the Stars, the Senshi were turned evil as well but Mamoru had already been "altered" so many times before that it became a bothersome thing after a while. I was always painful to see but overused, I feel.

Although, I will say that I appreciated him being the only one to break out of Nehelenia's nightmare while everyone, including Sailor Moon, were still trapped within it.

I don't know, I guess I'm kinda don't feel like it wasn't a bad thing. After all, he is the 'Chick' so to speak, so his brainwashing/hypnotizing seem to make sense to me. After all, it's not like the bad guys talked to each other and figured out "Hey they tried this before!"

It's more of an author fault than the character's fault.

Yes, it is more author's fault than character's - but than, everything that happens is. I don't think that in any case Mamoru let himself be brainwashed, but it's somehow the impression people get. Totally overused plotpoint IMO, without IMO sufficient payoff to justify it.

Chick?

I also loved his breaking out of Nehellenia nightmare in Dreams - I would only like some context why it happened...

Yes, in manga Stars everybody is - somehow only Mamoru is rememebered?

I love that in anime first season Mamoru despite becoming evil Endymion still shows signs of his true character.

Tvtropes term: The chick is usually someone that actually just encourages others and doesn't really do much of the heavylifting.

He even has his own Tvtropes page under supporting characters: Supportingcast of Sailor Moon

But I can't see that he's described as Chick, only Chick magnet - though he could really suit it better than Minako...

And I notice serious prejudice against him in this page - firstly, why he's supporting, but Outers main? Futhermore, again can be seen the earlier debunked myth about his being the worst case of brainwashing in anime.. (though ITA with Ha&Mi as anti-heroines).

Yeah, there's a certain amount of misinformation there (ie: Though offically never given, Chibiusa's last name and the reason -why- she's called Chibiusa.). The thing is, he kinda fills the role of 'The Chick' while Minako and Rei are apparently the 'Lancers'.

Though if you dislike the info, joining the site, you could help edit it. The reason he's put in 'Supporting cast', even though he's more clearly in the main cast (especially in the Manga) is because of the Sailor Collar/Gender issue.

You know the school of thought that he can't be a Sailor senshi because he's A: Male and B: Doesn't have a sailor collar. <- A lot of people prescribed to that thought.

The first school of thought is based mostly on an interview that Naoko T. did when asked about Sailor senshi in general and she had said something to the effect that Sailor senshi are only female. (but you kinda have to take into account that at the time English wasn't her first language and she had a translator I believe.).


Second school of thought says that the interview doesn't mean anything because it's not in the canon proper which says nothing about men not being able to be sailor senshi and vouche that because Mamoru actually wears a cape- it's the equvilent of a Sailor Collar. Therefore he should be considered a Sailor senshi (or a senshi at least) based on the fact he also has a Sailor Crystal, and 'collar-like' cape.

Third school of thought (with the sailor collar at least) is that the collar doesn't matter. It's a sailor senshi with or without it.


So, School of Thought 1 is probably why he's seperated from the others, even though his role is hardly supporting as the series goes on and he becomes more active, despite whether he's effective or not. (ie: Chibiusa isn't that effective of a fighter Anime wise, but she's added because she's female and possesses both a Sailor Collar and a Sailor crystal.) Considering how both Luna, Artemis, and Diana had their roles demoted and don't actually help in fighting unless it's dire and the others can't do it.

That and the person probably doesn't think much of him/has incomplete facts. (It happens. You seen the Phages? they don't even have a section.)

They also don't include ANYTHING from the Myus about him...

They didn't include the Myus at all, but I'm unsure if it's because it's another page or not. I think they DO have the PGSM page up..
Oh found them:

PGSM

And
Sera Myu

Even there, though, it really seems they don't like Mamoru at all.

It doesn't surprise me that TVTropes dislikes Mamoru so much. The entire website is horridly biased, to the point that I rarely even go on there anymore. >.>

Noticed. <<;